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bigmik

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  1. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from BigTenFanboy in Is it time to get rid of the escape point?   
    You did do it. That's the point. Are you being intentionally obtuse?
  2. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from BigTenFanboy in Is it time to get rid of the escape point?   
    If I wanted to make an argument for switching to freestyle I would be direct. Why in the world would I try to cover this up? It's not as though it's an off limits opinion.
     
    No, just because you believe that your unfounded accusation is correct, doesn't make it an accurate accusation. What if I accused you of secretly arguing to get rid of basketball for some reason? If I really believe is it true? You can't be this dull.
  3. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from BigTenFanboy in Is it time to get rid of the escape point?   
    I'm not answering your questions after your behavior on the thread that I started. If you would man up, that would be different. But you continue to be hard headed.
  4. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from BigTenFanboy in Is it time to get rid of the escape point?   
    False.
  5. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from Cletus_Tucker in 2017 Zain Retherford vs 2008 Brent Metcalf   
    You're funny MSU158. You yourself have said that Dake at 149 as a sophomore year was one of the best examples of someone pulling weight that you've ever seen, right? Either way, 2013 149 featured Donnie Vinson who beat Dake in 2011. He was two more yeaes experienced by this time. Chamberlain knocked Levalley out of the championship bracket in 2011. Dylan Ness was a returning finalist.
     
    You're taking Palmer over Oliver? Oliver never had trouble escaping on the mat and he was better than Palmer on his feet. They wrestled a match at 155 lbs in 2013 and Oliver beat him soundly. With all that said this is irrelevant. The two weights are comparable. They are both mediocre weights. Metcalf wasn't dealing with far greater competition than Oliver. You could even argue that Oliver's bracket was better than Metcalf's that year.
     
    When we compare careers, we compare results on the mat that each had against their own competition. Oliver had better results. What you're ultimately saying is that you are perfectly fine rating. Undefeated championship seasons with high bonus behind seasons where a wrestler took a loss and even had weaker bonus stats
     
    You are fine with ranking 36-1. 16 pins. (83% bonus) with a 9-3 loss in the conference final over 37-0, 17 pins (86% bonus) season. But you know good and well that Oliver's season would be ranked over Metcalf's in any Hodge race or best season list if they occurred in the same year.
  6. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from TBar1977 in 2017 Zain Retherford vs 2008 Brent Metcalf   
    SR year reality:
     
    Metcalf 36-1. 16 pins, 5 techs and 9 majors. (83%)
    Oliver 37-0. 17 pins, 9 techs and 6 majors. (86%)
     
    How does Oliver not have the clear edge. Metcalf lost. Oliver didn't. The loss occurred in the finals of the Big 10 tournament. That's not trivial. That's not nitpicking. If Oliver doesn't have the clear edge here, that's like saying that it wasn't really a pick'em in the hypothetical season where Metcalf goes undefeated. That somehow, someway Metcalf's season WAS clearly, undeniably better. It was so far ahead that he could lose a conference final, while Oliver goes undefeated, and still have an argument for having the better season. Metcalf somehow lapped Oliver so much so that a major stumble still gives him the edge. Come on folks. Not having Oliver over Metcalf senior year is apologetics through and through.
  7. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from TBar1977 in 2017 Zain Retherford vs 2008 Brent Metcalf   

    What was superior, seriously? Wow, the lengths people will go to somehow, someway manufacture an all time great career for Metcalf out of thin air. Although it's comical, it's also very sad. Btw, Oliver didn't want to cut weight, that's why he skipped over 141. He was projected at 141 before the season.
     
    MSU158, Oliver clearly is ahead of Metcalf his last 3 years unless we are completely changing the generally accepted "rules" of ranking wrestlers that have been around forever.
     
    Between the two, Oliver had the TWO best seasons. Not one, but TWO.
     
    As sophomores Metcalf had an NCAA title run and won the Hodge. That's good, but he lost a match that season by fall. Oliver was undefeated. If Oliver's undefeated championship season took place in 2008, he would have easily had the better season than Metcalf and won the Hodge.
     
    Let's look at the stats: Metcalf 38-1. 28 bonus point wins. (74 %) 12 pins, 7 techs and 9 majors
     
    Oliver: 29-0. 24 bonus point wins. (83%). 11 pins, 6 tech falls, 7 majors.
     
    Oliver clearly has the edge here. Historically, undefeated championship seasons trump national championship seasons with one or more losses. Oliver had a higher bonus percentage too, and I know you (and many others) really like that, though I think it's overrated. The story that everyone was selling for Metcalf winning the Hodge was that he got it that year because there were no other viable candidates. Gavin was arguably deserving, but he wasn't "statistically dominating" enough to get the nod (40% bonus or something) so Metcalf gets the SLIGHT nod. Well, Oliver outperformed Metcalf by being undefeated and having an even more "statistically dominant" season.
     
    Jr.years: Metcalf 37-1. 20 pins, 7 techs and 8 majors (95%)
    Oliver 28-2. 18 pins, 3 techs and 5 majors (93%)
     
    Metcalf lost to Caldwell and Oliver lost to Ramos and Stieber. Oliver lost more times; Metcalf lost by more total points. Metcalf lost in the final decisively: Oliver lost on a controversial call that would be made in his favor by some refs. Didn't the Jordan Oliver rule go on the books directly after this season? Anyway, we can say Metcalf has the edge here.
     
    SR Year: Metcalf 36-1. 16 pins, 5 techs and 9 majors. (83%)
    Oliver 37-0. 17 pins, 9 techs and 6 majors. (86%)
     
    Not much needs to be said. Oliver had the undefeated championship season between the two. He wins. If you must also factor in bonus points, Oliver also beats Metcalf in that category. Also, Metcalf lost at the Big 10s to Palmer 9-3.
     
    You have to go with an unnatural interpretation of these stats to not have Oliver clearly over Metcalf. You must go against the grain to make that case. Dominant undefeated championship seasons trump "dominant" seasons with losses on the record. In each of their championship seasons, Oliver would undeniably be ahead of Metcalf in any "Top seasons" or Hodge list. The only year Metcalf wins is the year in which they both failed to win the title. Oliver has the TWO best seasons of the combined 6 season and less losses. You have to be a Metcalf apologist to come away with a "It's debatable" after a review of the seasons.
  8. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from quaker118 in 2017 Zain Retherford vs 2008 Brent Metcalf   
    I'll give an easy example: 4X undefeated NCAA champion
  9. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from Cletus_Tucker in Suriano Update?   
    I was asking MSU158 for clarification, not everyone. You don't have to participate in the discussion if you don't want to.
  10. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from swoopdown in Suriano Update?   
    I disagree with the way you frame the debate. I don't at all feel compelled to create a list of unheralded wrestlers that Cael has taken to AA finishes/national titles and compare them to someone else's list of unheralded wrestlers. All wrestlers should be included. When all wrestlers are included, Cael is outperforming everyone else. What Cael has done with guys like Hall, Joseph, Nolf, Retherford, Taylor, etc. trumps what everyone else has done.
     
    There are hidden assumptions that aren't often pointed out in this discussion. One assumption is that when trying to judge how effectively a coach develops talent, it's a must to use the results of non blue chip recruits first and foremost. Another one is taking a top 10 kid to a national title is undoubtedly an easier, and less praiseworthy coaching job than taking a non blue chip kid to AA status. I disagree with these assumptions. I think this debate needs to operate under an updated, more nuanced paradigm.
     
    All things considered, I think what Cael is currently doing with Retherford is a better job of development than what Koll and co. did with Leen. And, no, I don't simply grant that every top coach would have turned Zain into what he is today if they had him in the room. I believe coaches would have a less difficult time duplicating Leen's career than they would have trying to duplicate the career Zain is having if they had both wrestlers in their room.
  11. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from PRyan2012 in Burroughs or Dake   
    That's one match. The Olympics plus the World Cup covers a pretty good stretch of matches.
  12. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from NYWRESTLER94 in Burroughs or Dake   
    That's one match. The Olympics plus the World Cup covers a pretty good stretch of matches.
  13. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from Cletus_Tucker in 2017 Zain Retherford vs 2008 Brent Metcalf   
    I think he would have been a contender for the title in 2007. In 2006 I would have had him as a contender for an AA spot, but not the NCAA title because I don't believe he was yet good enough offensively on his feet (or great enough on the mat to offset that) to claim the top spot.
     
    I take it you consider Metcalf to be greater than Cox in college?
  14. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from 21guns in Thanks Willie Smalls and CP FRL   
    "Knock his head off". Why because he's an overly enthusiastic homer? I have no problem with 21 guns. If they had to call him out, they should have done so here where they have equal access to the same platform.
  15. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from HurricaneWrestling in Thanks Willie Smalls and CP FRL   
    You're right that bringing up Pico in a discussion like this doesn't make much sense. Pico isn't comparable to Snyder. Snyder has proven himself in folk in a way that Pico hasn't. Bringing up his freestyle results in a supplementary fashion in a folkstyle discussion is reasonable. It's no different than when discussing the greatest HS folkstyle wrestlers ever, Kolat's performance at the Olympic trials is always brought up. It's a useful tool in demonstrating the level of wrestling he was able to achieve during his HS career.
  16. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from xander in Thanks Willie Smalls and CP FRL   
    You're right that bringing up Pico in a discussion like this doesn't make much sense. Pico isn't comparable to Snyder. Snyder has proven himself in folk in a way that Pico hasn't. Bringing up his freestyle results in a supplementary fashion in a folkstyle discussion is reasonable. It's no different than when discussing the greatest HS folkstyle wrestlers ever, Kolat's performance at the Olympic trials is always brought up. It's a useful tool in demonstrating the level of wrestling he was able to achieve during his HS career.
  17. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from hammerlockthree in 65KG US Open   
    He will finish with a better career than Snyder?
  18. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from Fishhook in Let's talk Hodge (again)   
    Zain for Hodge and Snyder for the Sullivan Award. Sound good?
  19. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from 21guns in Zain Retherford Wins Hodge Trophy   
    MSU158,
     
    Dean losing must have been upsetting to you, am I right? Now you're relegated to having to argue for one PSU wrestler over the other! Hahaha.
  20. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from 21guns in Iows Style - and now Penn State Style?   
    Sounds great. I'm not unhappy that PSU is dominating the college scene.
  21. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from Flying-Tiger in Zain Retherford Wins Hodge Trophy   
    MSU158,
     
    Dean losing must have been upsetting to you, am I right? Now you're relegated to having to argue for one PSU wrestler over the other! Hahaha.
  22. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from Crotalus in Zain Retherford Wins Hodge Trophy   
    He fulfilled the criteria the best. Taylor usually fulfilled criteria better than Dake but wasn't as good of a wrestler.
     
    With all that said, Retherford is very deserving of this award.
  23. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from HurricaneWrestling in Will Rei Higuchi wrestle for Penn State?!   
    Thanking Jesus isn't inconsistent with Buddhism. Cael has this well thought out!
  24. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from maj in Iows Style - and now Penn State Style?   
    No, there is no guarantee that PSU's stars would have been just as successful elsewhere.
     
    Cael is the best coach in all of college wrestling today. It's time to give him his credit. No, the job that Koll, B. Smith, Flynn etc. are doing is not as good as what Cael is doing at PSU, nor is it as impressive.
  25. Like
    bigmik got a reaction from swoopdown in Gabe Dean   
    If that's what he said, he might of well just mentioned that he was injured. "Let's say I'm healthy". Come on Dean.
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