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BadgerMon

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Everything posted by BadgerMon

  1. Hey, I'm not out to diminish anyone's record, not Cael's, not anyone. All I'm saying is....Cael was in college, he got beat. He had an incredible high school run already - what...170-3? and was getting ready for prime time. Would he have won it all that year? Maybe.....Pat Smith showed everyone that he could win it without the freshman year redshirt, didn't he? As has Kyle Dake and that is very rare air to have the opportunity for the 4th in a row. Actually, Lee Kemp came as close as anyone WITHOUT the redshirt to reaping 4 titles, and he was 17 years old until Christmas Eve his freshman year. His match result with Charlie Yagla has been disputed over the years- no disrespect whatsoever to Chuck. OT, ref's decision. It took a 2 time NCAA champ and 1980 Olympian to get in the way. I don't know how old Kyle was when he got his first title, but Dake continues to impress me, and Kemp's accomplishments are as impressive as anyone our country has ever had. I find it all incredible, as well as Cael's dominance is being indisputable. But all I'm saying is that you can't put Cael's record above Gables. Because they both took one on the chin. And quite frankly, Gable's opponent was much more accomplished than Mr. Jenn. Equals.
  2. Is this in order as well, FH ? Just wondering...I might put Dan Hicks somewhere in there at 142, as he was a 2 timer in one of the greatest 142 lb classes ever assembled ( Rein, LeRoy Smith, Scott Trizzino, Metzger, Mathies....) And 150 with '79 Bruce Kinseth ( pinned his way through big tens and ncaas) At what age? If I'm starting a team and had to pick on as an incoming freshman, I'm taking Sanderson. If I had to pick right now, that easy, I'll take the guy that's not retired. If I'm starting a team and had to pick starting freshman year and I'd get their career for the next 10 - 12 years, I'm going JB because I'd get him for the full time and CS for only 6 / 7. Also just of quick question, wasn't it that Sanderson would have wrestled in the 2001 World Championships but the date was pushed back into the college season due to 9/11 and because of that date change, he chose to not compete ? You got me thinking we need to have a all-time team. You know everyone will have different opinions and stuff and no one will be right. I'm using the old weights because I like them better. They make way more sense. At least as far as 118: what about all of the 103/112 pound seniors in high school? Anyway here is a rough draft 118: Gene Mills '81, Ricky Bonomo '87, Jeff Prescott '91, Sam Henson '93, Jack Cuvo '89 126: Terry Brands '92, Barry Davis '85, Kendall Cross '89, Stephen Abas '99, Brad Penrith '86, Sanshiro Abe '96 134: John Smith '87, Tom Brands '92, Jim Jordan '85, Randy Lewis '80, Mark Ironside '98, TJ Jaworsky '95 142: Dan Gable, Alan Fried '94, Cary Kolat '97, Kellen Russell 2012 150: Nate Carr '83, Kenny Monday '84, Mark Churella '78, Matt Demaray '92, Dustin Schlatter '06. Brent Metcalf '08, Dake '11 158: Lee Kemp '78, Pat Smith '94, Jim Zalesky '84, Rob Koll '88, Dan St. John '89, Joe Williams '98 167: Jordan Burroughs '11, Mark Churella '79, Royce Alger '87, Mike Sheets '83, Markus Mollica '95, David Taylor '12 177: Mark Schultz '82, Kevin Randleman '92, Chris Barnes '90, Les Gutches '96, Ben Askren '06, Ed Ruth '12, Chris Pendleton '05, 190: Cael Sanderson, Ed Banach '83, Jake Herbert '09 HVY: Kurt Angle '92, Howard Harris '80, Bruce Baumgartner, Stephen Neal '98, Carlton Hasselrig '88, Kerry McCoy '97, Tommy Rowlands '04, Cole Konrad '07
  3. Ahem....Storley and McIlravy from SOUTH DAKOTA thank you very much! 8-) Yes. In fact, there have been guys who have won 5 and 6 state championships. For example, North Dakota has a number of grade 7-12 high schools. Logan Storley won 6 state championships at Webster High and Lincoln McIlravy won 5 at Philip High. I believe Alabama has a 6x state champ, as well. (North Dakota may have another 6x champ - if my memory is correct.) Perhaps more interesting, I believe Troy Nickerson was still in middle school when he won the first of his 5 New York state titles. If so, it's possible that Rossel may consider him only a 4x state champion, since he wasn't technically in high school at the time. ;)
  4. Actually, its a horse apiece.....Uetake didn't compete officially as a freshman, and apparently neither did Cael. So...you could easily extrapolate that Uetake, had he another year since he did NOT redshirt ala Cael, that he would have won a fourth. Nobody is counting Cael's first year, so why count Uetake's? By the way,,,,Uetake wins the Olympic Gold WHILE still in school...hmmmmm Cael's dominance is a huge factor, however, it has often been told that Uetake did not like to show up his opponent. There's not a "serious argument" about a 3x undefeated NCAA Champ and 2x OW (Uetake) being better than a 4x undefeated NCAA Champ and 4x OW (Sanderson)? Hmm. If you'll indulge my unserious argument, I'd put Sanderson above Uetake.There's a huge difference between a 3x champion and a 4x champion. I realize that Uetake wasn't eligible as a freshman, but even since freshmen were permitted to compete, there's been numerous 3x champions and only 2 4x champs. Its possible that Uetake would have won a 4th title had he been allowed to compete, but wasn't he coming straight from a Japanese high school that wrestled a different style? I'm not so sure he'd have made that transition so easily. Then there's the question of dominance. Many Uetake's wins were by just 2 or 3 points. Its questionable whether he'd have won *any* Hodge trophies had it been around then, much less the 3 that Cael won. Many say that this was just Uetake's style, and that he could "turn it on" at will, and win by larger margins if he really needed to. But if we are talking about "greatest," then I'll take the guy who left it all on the mat almost every time, getting huge numbers of bonus point wins for his team, over the guy who is capable of such feats but often chooses not to do so. 4x OW > 2x OW. Yes, Uetake was an Olympic champ. But so was Cael. Yes, Uetake was an Olympic champ *while in college.* And that is the one stat you can point to which is better than Cael's. But if we're talking best all-time collegiate wrestlers, aren't we talking mainly about folkstyle? And what's more, Uetake had been training the international style his whole life in Japan, so it is understandable he'd have success in freestyle earlier in his career than most Americans. That doesn't make him a "better" wrestler. Cael was the opposite, having only dabbled in freestle in summer Fargo type events (like most Americans), and focused on it only after he graduated. And when he did, he became the best, even beating legends like Adam Saitiev. So I don't think this stat helps the argument for Uetake. All that said, I'll agree that its tough to compare wrestlers across generations, where the rules were different, both collegiately and in freestyle), the collegiate eligibility was different, and technique had evolved to different degrees. One could easily trot out a guy like Robin Reed in an argument like this and rattle off stats, even though at a certain point, its apples and oranges. But still, I'm not buying this "no serious argument" stuff for Uetake over Cael.
  5. Amen, Brother! Heard that Watanabe got beat a few years back in the Veterans!
  6. Nice! Not sure how many individual champions that number represents, but Mr Schalles was most certainly the Pinning Man. I do know that The Great One defeated Jim Jordan 6 times, Darrly Burley and Jim Gibbons 4 times each, for example. His record against NCAA Champions is 59-26-1. Eight of them were 2 time champions. Lots of pins in there, too. Many of the matches were freestyle, of course. Had he not blew out that elbow in early January of his senior year, he had a good chance to be the top Hawkeye career pin leader - he finished 9 behind Ed Banach. Uninjured-Figure he would have had 14 matches like his fellow teammates and there was a good chance he would have. Here's some interesting trivia for you....my old friend and roomie/classmate/teammate 1984 NCAA runnerup Mark Schmitz of Wisconsin has the distinction of defeating one 3 time NCAA champ ( Nate Carr), three 2 time NCAA champs ( Royce Alger, Marty Kistler and Andre Metzger), and two Olympic Champs ( Kevin Jackson and Kenny Monday). That, my friends, is a man with heart. Only one of those matches was freestyle, the rest collegiate. Freestyle win was over Monday (of all people). Mark retired from wrestling promptly after his finals match with Jimmy Zalesky.
  7. Randy Lewis may have more than Mr. Schalles.He also defeated many World Champs and medalists. He wrestled 24 NCAA champions and defeated 21 of them at one time or another, 16 after they were NCAA Champs. A different way to spell great, eh?
  8. Hurricane and Tiger- I know nothing about Ron Kiester, but since when do you believe everything that ABC tells you? And, we're speaking college matches anyway....Cael dropped 3 in high school fyi. Anywho...its kind of funny...back in 1976, the local newspaper reported that I was undefeated as a freshman in high school (freshman team, not varsity), but a junior- from my high school- had beaten me in the Black Hills JV tournament.....so if anyone asks...I was 29-1, not 27-0. Got beat, plain and simple. Game over. Tell the truth!! The match existed, and that's that. Wrestling matches generally expose the truth of the matter....if someone is prepared...if someone is not...truth- it WILL SET YOU FREE. I do appreciate the spotty "efforts" the media attempts to make things grand and occasionally cow-tow to the wrestling faithful, but they would better serve man-kind by airing GREAT MATCHES and doing a little spectator education with someone who can offer color commentary expertly. Well then, I guess all the ABC-TV hype about Gable's opportunity to make history as the first wrestler to go undefeated in both high school and college was a sham. After all, Ron Kiester defeated Gable during his freshman year - by fall, no less! (LOL! Very clever, JB. I typed in ***fall, but the "pin" part won't show up!)
  9. Yeah, but it might be fun for him....a match to look forward to, that's all I'm saying. Dake has no reason to go up after Taylor. They both graduated HS 3 years ago, in that time Dake has 3 NCAA title to one for Taylor. Taylor left the weight class that Dake went into. They wrestled head to head over the summer and Dake broke and destroyed Taylor. Dake has nothing left to prove re: David Taylor.
  10. If anything makes sense, it would be Dake going up a weight for a dual meet just once ( do they dual each other this year?) or for a single tournament to meet Taylor. Otherwise, its sort of dumb unless Kyle keeps growing- which it sounds like he keeps packing it on from what I saw and what I hear.
  11. NO such thing as a wrestling match for "funsies", sorry. A loss is a loss. Cael can never say that Paul Jenn did NOT beat him. He was undefeated. Like saying the Dolphins weren't undefeated because they lost in pre-season. Silly. I also didn't realize that losing 6-4 is getting it "handed" to you.
  12. So...there ...then...you could make the case that Gable's only loss ( in four years of college wrestling ) was to a superior opponent than Cael's loss ( in five years of college wrestling ) - and then, HOW do we measure greatness? They both lost their matches by two points. By his opposition. Just sayin...you can't put Cael over Gable. No way no how. They both had a blip! In Gable’s final 21 Olympic qualification and Olympic matches, he scored 12 falls and outscored his nine other opponents, 130-1. The single point being scored by Larry Owings, who defeated Gable in his final collegiate match. Compable indeed to Cael's post collegiate run in every way. Also, I admit I do not know or can find Cael's opponent list, but not sure if he defeated any World Teamers nor defending NCAA champs during his run (yes, I think he defeated Lawal and Hahn), but neither had won it yet?? Help me if I need correction. IF two guys have one loss in their entire careers, you would judge their body of work on WHOM they beat and WHOM they lost to, not just the number of titles. You could also judge their body of work on their last best un-injured years. For instance, the freestyle run that Burroughs is having IS incredible and Smith-ish/Gable-esque/Kemp-ish/et cetera. And thank you for the Paul Jenn link, Tiger.
  13. Last thing about wins and losses..... It would be so cool to say that I/he/they never lost to such and such ( because I/he/they) was wrestling Un-Attached. As if it had never happened. Cael did great....but to ignore the freshman loss debases what Jenn accomplished. I'm still waiting for the kid to show up who doesn't lose, period. Might have to wait a while yet 8-)
  14. Gable had 12 falls ( he didn't "toy" with his opponents) 2 decisions and the loss. We'll never know how Paul Jenn would have stacked up, but Gables loss was to a 3 time NCAA finalist Owings. Did Cael win the Midlands as a true freshman? Was he beating World Teamers? Just sayin...
  15. He deserves it...he bleeds Red and White and Black......just what we needed.
  16. Wisconsin Badgers will definitely be better! :ugeek:
  17. Just a couple of things here... 1. Cael ties with Gable for tops in collegiate because he DID lose a folkstyle match, unattached or no- the late Paul Jenn handed it to him. Wish people would quit saying he was undefeated in college because he was not. He had matriculated at Iowa State and wrestled with their team in the practice room. It was reffed by an NCAA certified referee in a collegiate style match. End of story. 2.Pat Smith didn't lose any matches after his freshman year....amazing! I would put he and Lee Kemp at the same spot. 3. John Smith was hurt pretty badly against Jim Jordan in the NCAAs, having suffered a shoulder injury in his semi against Greg Randall....I was VERY surprised that he even went out there...he had nothing. 4. The Schultz - Banach match was NOT a domination by Schultz. It was terrible throw position by Banach- never saw him wrestle that badly in four years. Also, Fishhook, you were slightly mistaken about Goldman being a several time champ- he was thrice runnerup and once champ- ALWAYS in the mix. 5. I cannot speak for/against any of the old timers...but I'll give them their due. 6. Dake, despite his occasional losses, is the real deal. He is great for the sport. 7. Amazing that TJ Williams can lose one match in 3 years, (98-1) or Lincoln McIlravy 3 in 4 years (96-3) and not even be mentioned.
  18. I know this is a "past decade" thread...but you should have been there for Mills/Gonzales in 1979. Mills pulls it out in the end with a ? reversal and 2 NF ? to win 16-14. Amazing match. Joe G had beat Gene earlier in the All Star meet by a nose...I think their records between them were 100-1 before the match.
  19. and Herbert was dominant in 2009, but did he have a better year than Caldwell? 2008-09 • Had one of the greatest seasons in NC State wrestling history, posting a 38-1 overall record and winning the national championship at 149 pounds, arguably the toughest in college wrestling in 2009 • Tied for the second most wins in a season by a Wolfpack wrestler, and had a 29-match winning streak that dated back to the final bout of the 2007-08 campaign, the fourth longest in NC State history • Only loss was by injury default • Had 17 pins, fourth best single-season mark in school history • Went 10-1 vs. ranked opponents, including a perfect 7-0 with two pins against opponents ranked in the national top 10 and defeated defending Hodge Award winner in the NCAA finals. Herbert: Defeated 2008 national champion Mike Pucillo of Ohio State in NCAA final, 6-3 ... Second four-time All-American in Northwestern history ... Finished his career with the fifth-best four-year winning percentage (.972; 135-4) among all Division I wrestlers since the 1974-75 season ... Ended career on a 66-match winning streak and with a 21-2 record at the NCAA Championships ... Won 18 dual matches and all eight Big Ten duals ... Did not surrender a takedown in his senior season ... Won his third Big Ten title with an 8-1 decision over third-ranked Phil Keddy of Iowa in the final ... Led the team with 15 pins, nine major decisions and four tech falls ... 10 of his pins came in first period ... Began the year ranked second to Pucillo before moving ahead of him in the polls on Jan. 6 ... Defeated 11 wrestlers ranked in the top 20 of his weight class by the end of the year ... Became the first Northwestern wrestler to win three Midlands championships on Dec. 30 when he defeated Keddy in the final by major decision, 15-1 ... Unanimous selection for Dan Gable Outstanding Wrestler Award at 2008 Midlands So how do you even make a distinction? Should have been a tie?
  20. I know that Burroughs won an Olympic Gold for Nebraska...who is the other? Schools with multiple golds: 11 - Oklahoma State (9 USA and 2 JPN) 6 - Iowa State 5 - Iowa 3 - Oklahoma 2 - Nebraska 2 - Indiana State I think I have almost everyone that medaled for USA from 1920-2012 accounted for. (Missing schools, if applicable, of 4 MF, 5 GR and 4 WF.) However, what I don't have is a list of medalists from other nations who wrestled collegiately in America -- which is why I had OkSt with 9 in my initial research. Does anyone have such a thing?
  21. This may sound like a homer call, but given that Paulsen was on his back and had to twist Henning's ankle into a PD situation leads me to believe that he was in a predicament also, and back points should have been assessed.
  22. and gotta say, after further review, that the Owings NF was mighty cotton pickin quick
  23. Nobody is saying much about it,,,but I felt that the refs letting Zach Rey dance around half the match with a foot out of bounds last year in the NCAA finals was controversial in my book. Just sayin....( it really bugs me)
  24. Could be! Would be a nice trade for Wiscy.
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