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Posts posted by Tofurky

  1. 6 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

    The whole point about his age is his struggled against high school kids in Arizona with his mat wrestling, and a 20 year old is a lot more physically matured then a 16 yr old, so with advantage in strength still struggling like that doesn’t bode well for when he faces the elite of the elite on the mat wrestling in the big ten week after week. 

    I've not seen or heard about his birth date. Is/was he 20-years-old and winning a state title?

    According to the Arizona Interscholastic Association by-laws:

    AGE LIMIT / BIRTH RECORD RULE 15.6.1 Age Limits – If a student becomes 19 years of age after September 1, he/she is eligible to compete for the remainder of that school year. If he/she becomes 19 years of age on or before September 1, he/she is not eligible for any part of that school year. 15.6.2 Birth Records – Acceptable record of birth shall be submitted before a student’s name is placed on an eligibility list for varsity participation. Acceptable records shall be: Certified Birth Certificate – One certified by the appropriate state agency. Acceptable Substitutes – Hospital Certificate of Birth with seal or appropriate signature; a Department of Commerce Certificate; a Bureau of Immigration Certificate; a Department of Justice Certificate; a Certificate of Indian Blood signed and sealed by the Department of Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs; a birth registration card issued by the State of Arizona Department of Health Services with seal; or a passport issued to a United States citizen (born in the United States or a naturalized citizen) by the State Department of the United States. Verification of Birth – Verification of birth may also be established when three reputable sources of information acceptable to the AIA Executive Board all agree as to the date of birth (i.e., school records, immunization records, etc.). Such documents must demonstrate utilization of the birth date over an extended period of time (i.e., each document should reflect issue dates encompassing a number of years).

    How could he have competed for a state title in Arizona with that being the case, especially if you continue to suggest he was already 20-years-old come Fargo after his senior year in high school? It doesn't add up.

    Every single 16-year-old is at X level of physical maturity and strength, while every single 20-year-old is at a higher level of physical maturity and strength, simply because of age? Is that what you're selling here? Was he being turned to his back at frosh/soph tournaments?

    I have only an English degree, but it served me well enough in reading and comprehension for my science requirements to earn As, and realize that your story isn't adding up here.

  2. 40 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

    He was like 20/21 yrs old getting turned by 15 16 yr old Arizona high school kids, now he’s going to a college where pretty much the only critique is guys don’t improve there mat wrestling while at Ohio State, When he faces an Eierman, Nick Lee, hell even kaid Brock he’s going to have some serious issues on the mat.

    What does his age have to do with the discussion?

    Correct me if I am wrong here, but Echemendia did not train any U.S. collegiate style whatsoever before his journey to the United States, right?

    You're suggesting that he will walk away after four or five years of college, having worked with Ryan, Jaggers, Stieber, Dlagnev, Jordan, and others, having not improved his ability to get out on bottom from what it is currently? Your statement is pretty dubious, don't you think?

  3. I have to wonder if he chose Ohio State because Tommy Ryan and friends allowed Kyle Snyder to wrestle U.S. scholastic/collegiate style in meets, while practicing Freestyle full-time and competing internationally during the college season . Snyderman seemed to manage an okay career by doing that. I wonder if Dresser and company weren't interested in allowing for that.

    In regards to AE being put down in college, does anyone really believe this will not be one of the first things addressed by the coaching staff once practices resume?

  4. 3 hours ago, Lurker said:

    Yep. He among others got sat down before the convulsion of the tournament. In one match where he was with review committee with our own Zach Errett, Zach went to hold up the paddle for the scoring and he literally took it away from Zach because it was going against him. 

    That's right! I remember reading about that.

    Was that dude a professional referee back home?

  5. On 4/23/2020 at 11:03 AM, Pinnum said:

    The sticker price is not the net price paid by most students.  

    Unless you’re a wealthy family, the sticker price for a private school is meaningless.  

    True, but that does not make small private schools automatically affordable. For students who don't excel in the classroom before moving to said four year school, they will be left holding some steep tuition and fee loans at the end of their college days because the internal scholarships they receive will be small in relation to the overall cost of tuition, room and board.

    A significant number of small privates from across the country struggle with raising the required money to offset those internal scholarships given by the schools to attract more students. There have been some recent articles sounding the alarm, if you will, that this is a growing trend. COVID-19 might expose that far sooner than some prognosticators think.

    As a former admission counselor at a small, Division III school (I left that position two years ago next month), I regularly told students (athletes and non-athletes) who would struggle to pay that tuition to attend community colleges first and save that money. The tuition costs were more than 9:1 from the community college. The community college I had coached at prior to the D III private moved from Division III status to Division I status within the NJCAA when they began offering tuition waivers to student-wrestlers. The problem was that it is incredibly difficult to tell an 18-year-old that NJCAA wrestling isn't akin to JV2 wrestling when all they have heard in high school is that and that they as a wrestler are above that level. If their parents have been hypnotized by that same speech, then there is little to nothing you can do about it at that point to keep someone from think that spending $30,000-plus a year (with the top internal scholarship), without a tuition freeze, mainly to wrestle is a smart idea.

  6. On 4/22/2020 at 10:47 PM, silver said:

    I see the top cocky stuff or insults to Jordan from  Dake, but haven't heard the one at the end that Dake says at the end of the interview  I want to see you leave your shoes? that I think is bush

    Yeah, not at all classy. I would have liked Dake to leave it at, "Hey, JB, after I beat you at OTT, I'll let you be my training partner for Tokyo, where you can watch me win gold from your seat in the stands."

  7. I'm going right to the end of this thread for a question I have. Did Flo edit out the first eight minutes or so of the interview with a match between Nolf and Gantt from Bill Farrell, I think? I watched it this morning for the first time and went back to it three times thinking my computer was messed up. Once it made it past the match Burroughs and Dake were already going at it.

  8. 8 hours ago, TobusRex said:

    I'm not against stricter rules against passivity in neutral. On the other hand I think the rules should recognize the fact that some guys just don't shoot. They lock up and push. In my opinion that's nothing more than stalling, but since they are pushing the other guy back only the guy getting pushed gets dinged. There has to be a common sense common ground. If the guy retreating is the only one taking shots he shouldn't get dinged. If the guy locks up, pushes, and never takes shots HE should get dinged, and the referees should be savvy enough to figure out what's going on.

    But the idea is to remove subjectivity from the referee. You can't have one set of rules for guys who shoot and one for guys who prefer to pummel, duck, body lock, etc.

    Also, it's pretty rare to find a Freestyler who doesn't shoot.

  9. On 4/18/2020 at 9:22 PM, ironmonkey said:

    I really don't see how changing scholastic to free is somehow going to lead to more "professional" opportunities.  I much prefer Folk regardless.  Switching styles would cost fans.  Those fans don't need to be reeducated or assimilated.  Most college fans have had some sort of exposure to freestyle despite the constant arguments that if we only understood it better we would appreciate it more. Props to the poster who made the connection to soccer fans!  It is totally the same kinda thing here. 

    Again, it's gradual rule implementation, not a full change all at once.

    The United States is (for now) the richest country in the world. There's not a ton of investment in the international styles of the sport because there are so few pathways to the top. Not unlike soccer, basketball, baseball, hockey, and football, all of which have the same rule structure from youth to professional, if wrestling had the same rule structures from youth to Olympics, we would see an immense amount of participation/depth at the senior levels, which would bring more investment to the sport from family, friends, and people and organizations who sell things to those groups. It's happening all around wrestling, but somehow wrestling says that the model feeding all of these other sports is wrong. What?

    The Nittany Lion Wrestling Club is thriving with investors and paying athletes to train and compete with and for them. More men and women wrestling Freestyle and Greco brings in more money from supporters and investors and a need for more clubs. If more people are wrestling Free and G.R. from an early age, increasing depth and level of skill, those become professional options. Again, we see it in soccer, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc. Why should wrestling be any different?

  10. On 4/18/2020 at 9:01 PM, D3UC157 said:

    It’s too drastic a change from folk to free. People will not want to abandon what has been “ours” for generations in favor of a “foreign” style.

    The only way it happens is as evolution over a prolonged period. Push out rule would be a step that direction.


    Personally, wrestling in PA, where mat wrestling plays such a huge part of folk style, it makes it hard for me to enjoy freestyle and it’s hyper-neutral focus.

    I agree with you and so have many, many other folks across time. It's gradual rule implementation, not the whole sale change of things in one fell swoop.

    We live in a global society. Someone not embracing something because it's "foreign", not hearing other perspectives and ideas, is in jeopardy of quickly becoming a dinosaur and being left to the fringes. They're the folks about whom Bruce Springsteen wrote "Glory Days".

    The Russians excel in par terre wrestling. Why? Not unlike PA wrestlers with mat wrestling, they spend a lot of time doing it. Want to improve in par terre? Study it and work on it. Want to turn guys more on top in U.S. scholastic/collegiate? Study it and work on it. I think a guy name Scott Moore (and his brother) was a good example of that. 

  11. 1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

    The problem with the pushout rule is that it encourages locking up and pushing in lieu of actual offense. Don't have a go to shot? Lock up and push. Don't laugh, I've seen it. Besides, I thought there was already a rule on passiviity? Guys already get dinged for retreating and not shooting (although not as much as they should, admittedly).

    I think the problem here presumes that the aggressor in your example is simply walking guys off the mat. Even in that situation, if a guy takes five, six or seven steps backwards with no effort to wrestle and just eat up the clock, he should be penalized for it.

    Along with that, a step out rule encourages more wrestling in the center of the mat and continuous flow to the match.

  12. On 4/17/2020 at 8:40 PM, HokieHWT said:

    I think it comes down to lack of experience. Everyone that has ever wrestled started with folk style. Most, never tried FS and even less tried greco. Now think of all the coaches, from youth league to college who are, and some that aren’t, experienced enough in folk style to actually teach it. Now take that number and divide it by 99 and that’s how many of them are qualified to teach/coach FS/GR.

    There just aren’t enough coaches to make a systematic change that eliminates folk style. Kids, today, aren’t going to listen to a coach who can’t talk about their personal successes.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the first paragraph. It comes down to pride and admitting you don't know it all.

    About 20 years ago, a man who is now a well known coach came back here, where he grew up, and started a wrestling school. High level kids were the first to go to him, outside of school. When other kids saw their growth, they went, too. Coaches in this area were FURIOUS! One of those coaches was one of my former high school coaches. By and large, it was all about pride for those guys and thinking they'd have to share some glory for the success of their wrestlers. It was absolutely ridiculous, but the in-state and national results were undeniable and that club coach was integral in helping with that.

    The second paragraph I stronly disagree with. Two of the best, most successful coaches (one high school and one college) I've had the pleasure of being mentored by had very limited success as student-wrestlers, but immense success as wrestling coaches. Just this past weekend, Mark Perry talked about that very sentiment in a Trackwrestling video. He said people always ask him, "how can you coach Freestyle if you never wrestled [it]?" His reply? "I'm just a student of the game and I try to constantly get better [as a coach]."

  13. On 4/18/2020 at 10:33 AM, GockeS said:

    speaking of not understanding...  you seem not to

    you dont have to hold anyone on their back. that is the meaning of control.

    so he can't get off it.  and lol at 'the touch fall is gone'. and the idea of the 'slip' throw... speaking of not having control

    by the way i did move on. 

    i keep bolstering my point with facts, and you keep asking if i ever wrestled..as if this bolsters  your position somehow..

    its just an insult and a cop out 


    and as far as the contributin nothing... um, this thread is about why folk and not free

    you just really dont understand much do you.



    You haven't provided facts, GockeS. You've provided opinions, trying to pass them off as fact with no support at all. You've tried to put your words in my mouth and it hasn't worked. You want blind acceptance for your point of view, so you've turned your replies into personal attacks on me, which is how people who don't have a position argue.

    Post into the wind from now on, my man. I won't be paying you any more attention.

    Btw, I see you have been looking at my profile trying to figure out who I am.

  14. 23 hours ago, John Morgan said:

    My question is...what scoring rules in Freestyle would you like to see implemented in Folk?  The reason I ask is because the NCAA Rules Committee is constantly adapting rules to make the sport better.  Sometimes those rules are very minor but sometimes they make a big difference.  "Hands to the face" penalty first offense lasted one year, and it was changed as too draconian.  Scoring and allowing pinning out of bounds has been a good rule change.   

    There are some Freestyle rules I would like to see in Folkstyle but there are many rules I would not want.  I would like to see a reward for feet to back technique.  Think Mark Hall vs Michael Kemmerer first match.  Hall jacks up MK with double underhooks and throws MK to his back and MK comes out the back and scores TD so 2 MK and 0 MH.  Maybe this could have been 2-2 or 3-2?  The excitement of Hall taking the risk on the throw hurt him.  What's the lesson?  Don't take those kind of risks, or only in desperation.  The moment you add scoring for feet to back, you will see better technique being developed in wrestling rooms across the country (just watch the Russian Nationals highlight film).

    However, there are many things about Free I would not like:  

    *  3 Officials...ridiculous

    *  Par Terre

    *  Being under the umbrella of UWW rule changes.  Would you rather be under the protection of The Bill of Rights or under the whims of the UN?

    I'm with Jim L. on these statements.

    The last comparison you made is far too nationalistic for my liking. If I remember correctly it was an interview with Sam Barber where he discussed NCAA rule changes protecting the "heritage" of U.S. scholastic/collegiate. The rules here have changed across time, too. Which are the best?

    I believe that UWW has done some serious examination of what fans want to see and where the majority of points are scored in the international styles to improve their "products", keep wrestling in the Olympics and improve viewership. I cant think the same is being done with the NCAA, except for fireworks, music, and flashing lights to draw attention to ESPN.

  15. On 4/17/2020 at 7:15 PM, TobusRex said:

    Thanks for the compliment on my posts, I feel the same about yours. I can't speak as to what other fans would do, but if they implemented that 15 second turn clock I'd walk away and not look back.  Also I never said I never wrestled FS, either. I DID wrestle FS on multiple occasions, once for an entire season (at age 26), and I had a FS record of 18-3, counting 2 forfeits. This isn't a case of somebody not liking something he wasn't good at, this is a case of a guy not liking something because the other way is better. Folk is a balanced form of wrestling, not just takedowns.  I like the fact that after I earn a takedown I'm given a chance to go to work on the other guy, see if I can get him on his shoulders. You FS guys seem to have forgotten that pinning the other guy is the classic method of winning a wrestling match, not beating him 1-0 on a stepout. 

    Thank you, sir. I am happy we don't need to devolve to personal attacks to share opposing opinions on the matter. I look forward to more.

    It's unfair to say that all Freestylers choose not to pin or even suggest that they pin less than U.S. scholastic/collegiate wrestlers. One thing to remember is the quality of the competition at the International level. It is really, really, really, really hard to turn, let alone pin world level guys, especially when they are flat and not turtling up. In another post, I gave some recent examples of U.S. wrestlers pinning  and being pinned in Freestyle against international opponents, so it absolutely does happen, maybe at the same rate as it does in college.

    Freestyle and Greco, in my opinion, are indeed balanced forms of the sport. Not unlike U.S. scholastic/collegiate, at the NCAA tournament, what percentage of matches there have back points scored in them? NCAA fans have become snooze fests, by and large, because there are so few turns on top and guys ride parallel all the time. Again, the fact is that turning guys is incredibly difficult. The fact also is that watching two guys ride parallel for roughly 2/3 of a match has long been killing viewership. For the overwhelming majority of U.S. scholastic/collegiate wrestlers, wrestling on the feet is their bread and butter, not unlike Free and G.R.

    Going back to the 2019 NCAA D1 finals, as a very recent example, four sets of near fall points were scored. The first was by Anthony Cassar as a takedown to turn against Oklahoma State. Anthony Ashnault put Micah Jordan on his back straight of a takedown. Jason Nolf against Tyler Berger, again, going takedown to turn. Mekhi Lewis cradled Vincenzo Joseph from top at the beginning of the second period for the only near fall points scored during the finals from a ride. That is 10% of matches having near fall scored from a ride. Not unlike Free or Greco, smart wrestlers are more adept at taking advantage of their opponents' bad positions right from the takedown.

  16. 19 minutes ago, GockeS said:

    does that mean that there is control...and that you hold the man on his back... or not.

    it may take some effort and strenght, cunning guile and a set up... but to score... you dont have to hold him there... hence no control.

    good day.


    Yes, GockeS, that means there is control of your opponent's body to execute those moves and to score those points.

    Here you are again being disingenuous, unless you truly are ignorant to how it works. I don't know. I don't know you or your experience with the Olympic styles.

    Since you mentioned "holding a man on his back", pinning is not unique to U.S. scholastic/collegiate. They happen internationally, too. Kyle Snyder can tell you about it from January when he was pinned by the Iranian. Zain Retherord was recently pinned by an Argentinian wrestler. Jordan Burroughs pins guys when the opportunity arises. This isn't peewee wrestling we are talking about, GockeS. I'm not sure if you're aware of it or not, but the touch fall in Free and GR is gone. Control is required to make that happen, too.

    GockeS, please move along. You've contributed nothing to this thread.

  17. 3 minutes ago, GockeS said:

    correct me if im wrong:

    in folk. a person must have taken the other down to score back points... except in the new danger situation, which still requires the control to hold the person in the position for a count of three.

    in free. a person must only expose the back quickly beyond 90 with NO CONTROL.. including hip tilts, crotch lifts etc... in  a defensive position

    so claim bolstered.

    tell me about all these pro opportunities that americans have access to 

    And here is where you pretend as if head pinches, hip tilts, crotch lifts, leg laces, et al are simple maneuvers. Again, sir, have you ever tried to hit any of those on a high school wrestler who is competent, but certainly not world class, in the international styles? It's as easy as snapping your fingers and doesn't require any level of skill or tactic, right?

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