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Posts posted by Tofurky

  1. 8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

    how many americans have access to any of this? 

    Reread what I said. I'm talking about a real future for wrestling opportunities for many more athletes than we have now.

    The Olympic styles are not something to be afraid of. It's okay if you're not well versed in them. There's always opportunity to change that.

    No one said "throw away" U.S. scholastic/collegiate. However, it has been experiencing lean years in the last decade and the current financial crisis is only going to make things worse.

  2. 1 minute ago, GockeS said:

    oi would disagree... i think some are SCARED of FS... b/c of the throws and the rip and tear attitude... 

    you dont need control.. .just expose the guy... 

    Have you ever tried to "just expose the guy" who has been training in the sport for a while? I'm not talking Olympic level competition, but competent high school kids. "you dont need control [sic]" is such an old, tired, invalid argument.

  3. 6 hours ago, TobusRex said:

    Every year with the whining about FS.  People in the USA grow up doing folkstyle, and that is the kind of wrestling they are used to watching. It's that simple. Plus those of us who actually were pretty good folkstyle wrestlers look at FS as a "weak sister" with no mat wrestling. I hate FS, I consider it weak, a halfsport at  best. So...probably 90% of people want to stick with folk because it's "what they know" and the rest want to stick with folk because FS is wimpy with no mat work.

    Allow me to paraphrase, "we've always done it this way." That's one hell of a motto and great for future sustainability of any business or program.

    I typically like your posts, TobusRex, but I'm baffled by your post. Please, allow me ask you this: do you think that if U.S. scholastic/collegiate added the international step out rule as it exists at that level, and/or had, say, a "15 second turn clock" before they put wrestlers back on their feet, 90% of participants currently would leave the sport because of the rule changes? You don't seriously believe that, do you?

    As to your assessment of why you didn't wrestle Free or Greco, that argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. I personally know more than a handful of former D1 NCAA champions/All-Americans who were world team members and medalists. Having conversed with them about this debate, they would wholly disagree with your assessment of Freestyle.

  4. 7 hours ago, GockeS said:

    and where do we have to go to find these professional opportunities? 

    In the U.S., we don't ask baseball players to grow up in that sport, then switch to cricket for professional opportunities. We don't ask football players to grow up and play rugby at after college. There's consistency all the way from youth to professional ranks for basketball, soccer, etc. Why would we do any different in wrestling?

    Professional leagues exist overseas in nations with far fewer citizens, far fewer participants, and, presumably, less money than exists in the United States. A seamless transition from youth through professional creates more opportunity for athletes, more fans, more viewership, and more investment from many sectors of society.

  5. We can go around and around about various "folkstyles" of wrestling the world over, but I have been very, very specific here about which one I am talking about, how it is tied to educational systems in the United States, how it has a delineating date with graduation from college (overwhelmingly undergraduate programs), and zero professional option for competitors.

    While Freestyle and Greco-Roman may be the "Lingua Franca of wrestling, RichB, they're global and offer professional options to the athletes who compete in those styles. I suspect that the IOC is (not-so-)secretly hoping and praying the U.S. adopts the two styles for greater revenue streams every four years.

    Aside from Boompa's semi-jingoistic assessment of why this country sticks to the scholastic/collegiate form of the sport (in which this nation alone competes), would it not make more sense for the future and growth of this sport to look at rule changes which allow for long-term sustainability, especially as the sport continues to lose participants and opportunities?

  6. 13 hours ago, Boompa said:

    Same reason why sports like football and basketball are far more popular in the U.S. than the rest of the world, we invented it.

    The NCAA championships and state championships all around the country are proof folkstyle is the superior style for fan attendance.  Ever see Russian Nationals?  Our OTT's or WTT's?  How about the world championships?  Nowhere near the fan attendance, internet and TV viewership and media attention.

    You are like those soccer fanatics who cannot understand why soccer, despite being the vastly most popular sport in the world, cannot gain solid traction here in the U.S.

    It's simple, it's not American.

    Every spring we see the freestyle people pop out and start questioning why folkstyle.  You already lost the argument that folkstyle hurts our senior level success because it hasn't, a lack of RTC's and $$$ for our athletes to continue competing was the culprit all along.

    The one thing I do not miss with the coronavirus is coaching at freestyle qualifiers and having to look at the freestyle officials with their pony tails, tattoo sleeves and smoking outside the front doors during breaks, because the freestyle season is the only time you see those guys.  They are strangely absent during the winter.

    @Boompa, do we know one another on a personal level? What's with the ad hominem arguments from you?

    Football is the grandson of rugby. It is what it is now thanks to rule changes, though some rules remain the same and many of the names do, too. That's not news.

    I don't believe that you can si.pky say Russian Nationals doesn't draw. If it was consistently held it Dagestan or Ossetia, the numbers would be different. Do the folks in St. Petersburg or Moscow care about wrestling as they do in the Caucasus? We already know the answer is no.

    NCAAs and state tournaments draw more because they are tied to schools and most people paying their property taxes. Far fewer kids are involved in Freestyle and Greco not because U.S. scholastic/collegiate is "superior", but because it is an additional cost to families and the vast majority of kids aren't dedicated to being year-round wrestlers. That's not a secret either.

    Worlds is not exactly a secret either: it's expensive to attend even when it is in your own country.

    The last Olympic team Trials in Iowa City had roughly 55,000 people attend the four sessions. A complete sellout would have been 62,000. Think about how few Hawkeyes were there and how many less athletes were competing than NCAAs and the numbers were almost the same.

    To your assessment that the answer was simple: lack of RTCs and $$$... okay. Now think of how dominant the U.S. would be and potential professional options available post-college if the system was Free and Greco. U.S. depth would be immense, more people would watch and more people would follow clubs because more people would be competing past college. It's not that difficult to understand.

    ConnorsDad is right, you can change the style and Iowa fans, PSU, The OSU, OSU, et al, will all support their teams and their guys just the same at the college level, and probably even more past college as there is a seamless transition from college to the senior level, not a style change many do not understand.

    Will U.S. collegiate/scholastic be more immune to what is ahead of ADs decisions? I guess we will find out.

  7. Why do most wrestling fans in the United States cling so tightly to our singular scholastic/collegiate style of wrestling? This style isn't wrestled anywhere else on earth, is strictly tied to educational institutions (if you want to compete in it, you have to be registered in school at any level), and has zero competitive option beyond college. Given that many of the board members here can see the obvious danger of what a shaky economic market due to a pandemic is foreshadowing for non-revenue collegiate sports, why are we as a sports community not looking for more suitable options for the longevity of wrestling in this country?

  8. Nice to see you here, seanlove22. I hope the family is well and that the Mustangs are thriving.

    Darrion Caldwell vs. Ryan Lang (2007 NCAA Quarters)

    Darrion Caldwell vs. Brent Metcalf (2009 NCAA Finals)

    Steve Marianetti vs. Lincoln McIlravy (1995 NCAA Finals)

    Joe Gilbert vs. Tom Brands (1991 B10 Finals)

    Jim Gibbons vs. Randy Lewis (dual meet)

    Cael Sanderson vs. Paul Jenn (dual meet) - completely lopsided, but Sanderson show what it is like when someone works 100% of the match.

    Michael Kemerer vs. Mark Lee (dual meet)

  9. 5 hours ago, Yellow_Medal said:

    There are scholarship and non-scholarship NJCAA schools. Many of my teammates had full scholarships.

    Thank you, sir. I am aware of this. I was coaching on a team that went from being a D III team for its first 50 years, to being a D I program starting with the 2014-15 season.

    That said, NJCAA Division I programs are eligible to give up to 20 scholarships each season.

  10. 6 hours ago, irani said:

    Murtazaliev won gold, right?

    Bronze in 2004 at 66, Gold in 2005 at 66, Gold in 2007 at 74, but didn't make it in 2008 when Buvaisar Saitiev won his third Olympics. By then, Makhach was no longer Russian's man at 74. He won gold at Yarygin in 2009 and Aliev in 2011, but that's it. It's insane to think about how deep that weight class has been for Russia since... ever. 

  11. Just now, ionel said:

    They really only exist because if the college wrestling program, take that away and the universities will not have a connection and will use the space/facilities for something else. 

    Absolutely true and why I am wondering if wrestling, among nearly a dozen other non-revenue collegiate sports, becomes a club sport and is supported by alumni. I see a lot of pros and cons to it.

    That said, I wonder if it's time for USSW starting to lobby the NCAA wrestling rules committee to start making necessary rule changes to embrace the Olympic styles? If the United States (read as money) had Free and Greco from kids through college, I wonder if the IOC would change their tunes about the reduced number of weight classes, as more fans would understand the sport and watch/support it?

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