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Everything posted by Tofurky

  1. I'll repeat my biggest beef with the rules: nine minutes is unnecessary. I'd like to see a scoring analysis of ALL the AGON matches, matches at NCAAs and Worlds to find out when the majority of the scoring is taking place in wrestling at the highest levels of the sport. With the exception of Aksren vs. Wright and Borschel vs Simpson, the final three minutes of these matches has been unremarkable to say the least. Most of those third period takedowns in both matches had more to do with exhaustion and injury than they did with technique. Adam has said this is about who is the best wrestler, but the minutes seven through nine appear to be more about who is the better conditioned or more willing (i.e., QW twice bailing out to give up two sets of takedowns; Simpson's banged up knee and ill-advised inside trip to his own back). Beyond that, the rules are very good and I think they're a nice hybrid between American Folk and International Free. That said, I'd love to see some guys bold enough to go for straight and reverse lifts to score, too.
  2. I've never been much of an Askren fan outside of the fact that he backs up his talk. At this point, what more does this guy have to prove to anyone in this country?
  3. Once the freshman and transfers are figured in, it's going to be really interesting to see how much this changes.
  4. I'm reading this as he and his staff might be most confident in developing their own recruits. This year he'll be down to one guy in the line-up (Ruth) who he didn't recruit.
  5. Tsirtsis - Northwestern Brooks - Iowa
  6. I don't know that anything in this thread complicates wrestling anything any further. Right now you can earn another match point from the offensive position on the mat (top) for never even remotely moving your opponent into near fall. "Didn't put your guy's shoulders in danger, but hung on his hips and ankles for more than minute? Here's a point!" - In the suggested form, stalling is no longer a subjective call by referees. --- In short, refs should be there for each wrestler's safety, to award points and pins and raise the hand of the winner. Why give them any sort of subjective power that could influence the outcome of the match? --- Refs would now be given a very defined set of rules from which to apply the stalling call during the match. --- I don't know that any wrestling fan would be upset about this. - You don't turn your opponent in 30 seconds, both guys go back to your feet. --- The defensive (bottom) man doesn't earn a point for NOT being put on his back; he gains nothing for not escaping or reversing his down position in that time. --- First neutral reset is a "freebie"; second is a warning; third is a point for the opponent, so on and so forth. --- I could be wrong, but I would think it would be in the best interest of the defensive (bottom) wrestler to work to earn an escape or reversal instead of simply laying there for 30 seconds and being absolutely punished for nothing to gain. - You don't earn near fall points at all during the match, no riding time point is awarded. --- This doesn't mean you cannot ride your opponent, nor am I suggesting that it should be wiped out, just that near fall points need to be earned in order to earn riding time. --- I also suggested that you may choose to cut your opponent before those 30 seconds to stop a "turn clock", for lack of a better term, avoid the stalling call and continue wrestling. To your point about not being able "defend yourself on your feet and cannot get out from the bottom, you deserve to lose", how would what I proposed change any of that?
  7. That's a point of view that not everyone would agree with, hence the discussion.
  8. My argument is assuming that the bottom man is working too. Maybe the approach I put out there for discussion applies to both guys? Let's keep discussing this. You would be called for stalling twice. The first is a "free pass", if you will. Turning a good wrestler is incredibly difficult, I absolutely agree. But if the object of you being on top is to work for a fall and this guy never goes into the danger position, did you do your job on top AND should you be rewarded with points for not doing what the rules are demanding of you? Refs get this one wrong all the time. Why not give them some concrete guidelines with which to work, thus taking this sort of subjectivity out of their hands? Your job as the top wrestler is to work for a fall, not throw a leg and feign a cross body ride to a split just so you can eat up some time on the clock and earn a point for NOT doing your job.
  9. Andy, Thanks for this further breakdown. In 16 out of 40 matches (or 40% of the time) were back points scored. Of those 16, five instances came from feet to back or scrambles from neutral positions. That said, in only slightly more than one quarter of the matches (27.5% by the numbers), in this specific tournament, in this specific year, did guys actually work from top to turn their opponents to their backs. Two more times were guys caught in roll throughs, lowering the numbers of intentional scoring maneuvers by the top man down to 22.5% of matches that saw this take place. That said, and Andy, I am not asking that you do this, but I'd be interested to know about how long on average it took for each one of these turns to take place. Are they taking 1:33 to set up on average? Are the turns coming at an average of 17 seconds after a breakdown from top or takedown? Personally, I'd love to see a further analysis of this done (by the NCWA and NCAA) for tournaments such as National Duals, Scuffle, Midlands, Reno and each of the conference tournaments to have a more complete picture of how many near falls are scored in relation to riding time points being awarded, when those near falls are taking place, on average, from what positions (during a scramble from the feet, a desperation roll through or did the top man set it up and turn his opponent) and if it ended up being the difference in a lot of matches.
  10. http://www.flowrestling.org/speaker/150 ... or-Hate-it - the passion on both sides is good, even if the argument is a tired one. How about counting riding time ONLY if near fall points have been awarded? How about a clock, similar to Freestyle, where you have 20 or 30 seconds to turn your opponent once a takedown has been awarded before you're both put back on your feet? Similarly, if a guy rides his opponent (from either a takedown or a start on the mat) with no turn and action is moved back to the feet, the first time no call is made. The second time is a warning for the top man. The third time is a second warning and a stalling point, so on and so forth. The top man would also have the option of cutting his opponent loose before 30 seconds so as to avoid the stalling call. This places more onus on the top man to score from that position. I know Andy Vogel did an analysis of scoring from the feet during the quarterfinals of last season's DIs, but how about a scoring analysis for as much of the tournament as possible from the mat? I suspect that a lot of riding time is built up and awarded, but with very few turns being involved. Does anyone know if the NCAA or NWCA does any sort of analysis like this?
  11. Exactly. Joe Williams used to sell a poster of himself hitting a cow catcher on a guy from Iowa State (I think). I have it at home somewhere and will have to look it up.
  12. This sums it up for me. I find DF, Del Fino, et al, quite entertaining most of the time, insightful pretty frequently and I like that he holds a mirror to the wrestling community, which is very afraid to look into it and see a lot of the realities in that reflection. His last thread about bballers and wrestlers was a great way of showing the Napolean complex that many associated with this sport have. Bravo, DF!
  13. I think this one is cool, but I would have loved to see Ness vs. Maple at 149 more than Steiber/Maple. That is all. They could potentially meet at national duals. I personally like these clashes where guys bump up in these exhibition matches. Sure they are exhibitions and don't count on their records but these guys certainly want to win and there are certainly bragging rights to be had for the guys that win. I like the idea of showcase matches that wouldn't normally happen occurring here. I agree with you on this one. It is great for fans to see guys put it on the line, so to speak, and having fun with the sport. What does Hunter have to lose? This is great for the wrestling nerds.
  14. I think this one is cool, but I would have loved to see Ness vs. Maple at 149 more than Steiber/Maple. That is all.
  15. all wrestlers "Sparring", "play wrestling", or whatever you wish to call it, is a fundamental way of dialing back the intensity in the room/practice area, but learning and working through new positions at a slower pace that allows you to become comfortable with various positions and situations. uh...many/most would call that.DRILLING.....CERTAINLY NOT "playing".........NEVER heard a wrestler refer to wrestling as...."playing".. EVER Why are you e-yelling and wantonly abusing punctuation? It's not what you said, it's what you insinuated with your own words. If you didn't mean all, then say so. http://www.flowrestling.org/video/50402 ... ow-to-spar - read the description, watch the video and consider yourself informed.
  16. http://www.nwcaonline.com/allstarresults.pdf Some that come to mind. Kolat vs. Ironside in 1996 Dake vs. Taylor in 2012 Brands vs. Fried in 1991 Kolat vs. Jaworsky in 1994 Moore vs. Abas in 1998 and 1999 Smith vs. Martinez in 1980 Fraser vs. Banach in 1980
  17. Take a look at the post directly above my first one in this thread. The poster dumbs down the entire sport to simply bouncing a ball and, I suggest, underestimates the hard work and talent (either natural or developed) it takes to do so much more than simply "bouncing" the ball on the floor. I don't know who you're around, but I have been hearing this same sort of argument about how "easy" basketball is or "how hard is it to put a ball in a hoop?" for almost 25 years. I'm no basketball fan, but I certainly don't hate it. However, that sort of mentality grows so old, so fast and makes those involved with our sport look incredibly ignorant and arrogant. In as far as your blanket statement regarding the perception all wrestlers have of their sport being a "war", speak for yourself, thank you. I don't consider wrestling "war" and wouldn't ever be so brazen as to equate it as such. "Sparring", "play wrestling", or whatever you wish to call it, is a fundamental way of dialing back the intensity in the room/practice area, but learning and working through new positions at a slower pace that allows you to become comfortable with various positions and situations.
  18. The situation beginning at 1:23 does not belong on this video. The "scoring" wrestler is on both knees, the opponent is in a tripod position, and the scoring wrestler is not even remotely behind him. I suspect that this situation will not be called a takedown this season, even though it appears on the video. Agreed; this somewhat reminds me of the Hendricks vs. Churella takedown from the finals so many years ago.
  19. This reads to me like more excuses... or some of the same old excuses because this argument has been out there for years. How many guys in the 55, 60, 66, 74 and 84 kilos weight classes can make an NFL roster? Does that make them bad athletes because they're not Ray Lewis or Adrian Peterson? Escobedo made a medal match, but lost. Hump won two. Metcalf caught one of the best guys in the entire world right out of the gates and was one and done. Burroughs won... again. Gavin went 1-1. Bergman lost to a guy who placed fifth and Tervel was fifth... yet again. I think for those out there who look at world talent objectively each and every year, the US did well this season with the guys who made the team. It's pretty typical for American wrestling fans to expect domination by this country's athletes at every level, but it's hard to dominate when the guys on your team just aren't as good at wrestling as the guys from places like Iran, Russia, Georgia and others from that very specific region of the world. Heck, though top five, the US finished just two points ahead of India.
  20. I think it has to do with egos. Wrestlers severely underestimate the talent it takes to be on the level of guys like Derrick Rose, Chris Paul or Kevin Durant. Many of the guys I know who hold this view are of the "no one on EARTH works harder than a wrestler, even at the freshman level." On the other hand, basketball is part of a multi-billion dollar organization in this country, let alone globally, and a lot of b-ballers, especially inner city kids, think they're the next LeBron or Kobe. Many of those guys feel that they can be pricks to a large swatch of society because they play their sport better than the average Joe. I've also seen some of the inner city bball kids think they're tougher than stone because they grew up in X neighborhood. The basketballers then underestimate wrestlers, especially the guys on the lower ends of the weight scales.
  21. I didn't read the entire thread, but I'd have to suspect that things changed when youth wrestling began to explode. More mat time from a younger age certainly makes for better wrestlers from the bottom on up. Mind you, I am 38, so much of my info goes off of reading what posters older than myself here and on other boards have stated or suggested.
  22. No offense to Jason, but once he wins three world titles he can then reclaim said moniker. Either that or he can get Chuck Norris to sport his skivvies. Whichever comes first is fine by me.
  23. Two things I am noticing that seem to be prevalent in the conversation about this every year: 1. Outside of 74 kilos, there is very limited depth at most every other weight for the United States. 2. There's a lot of talk of guys who retired/possibly retired/were injured. To me that's a lot of excuse making, but then also goes right back to point numero uno. Also, as a team, where does the US sit? I don't mean with points and all, but as a full on team? Are they still a top three or five power? Are they outside of the top 10 nations in men's Freestyle?
  24. Thanks for clearing that up, bwh. I had seen Ezzatollah listed as Akbari, but then checked the brackets thinking they had it right. As I previously mentioned, themat.com brackets have it wrong, too. Oh well. I was wrong. Was Goudarzi injured or is he just taking time away from the mat for now?
  25. Wait, where did this info come from? I have to think this is false... Foeldeak database... same tournament Aaron Pico won last month. The brackets courtesy of themat.com leave out three vowels from his name and he's the only one in the database with a name like that.
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