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Pinnum last won the day on August 4 2017

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  1. Oh course, if these competing camps draw girls away from the schools that actually sponsor the sport at their school, they diminish the benefits to the school. "We added a girls team because we thought it would bring people to our school for camps but our camps are not well attended and it hasn't increased our name recognition. We are now considering terminating the program as it hasn't delivered the results the sport was suppose to bring to our campus."
  2. Pinnum

    Common Sense in Big 10 scheduling

    Thanks. Then they should be able to schedule a 2020 dual if they want. They have the notice now.
  3. Pinnum

    Common Sense in Big 10 scheduling

    Also, are the future rotations and matchups known? Like does Penn State and Iowa know that in 2025 they will not wrestle a conference dual? Or do they find out when the conference puts together the schedule in the summer? How much notice do they have? I was under the impression the last time they wrestled non-conference that it was fairly short notice they found out they wouldn't be wrestling.
  4. Pinnum

    Common Sense in Big 10 scheduling

    Serious question: Do Iowa and/or Penn State make more money when they wrestle each other or when they don't wrestle each other? I ask because this is the problem that football and basketball has. It can be more profitable for a school to compete against a team in a mismatch and sell a lot of tickets than to compete against a peer in a home/home series and give up one home date completely. In football and basketball there are two incentives that really aren't at play in wrestling that help to incentivize these games to happen on occasion. (1) teams will agree to them when they get National TV and (2) they will agree to a limited number as they are necessary to help their qualification to the national tournament or bowl games. Iowa averages 9k fans. CHA capacity is 15.5k. So if they use an OOC home slot to go on the road they give up roughly 9k in attendance (and whatever their revenue metric is for that attendance). Now, the benefit people will cite is getting to attract 15.5k in an alternate year, but that only averages to about 8k a year. It means that Iowa is able to fill a non-conference dual slot at home every year, rather than going on the road, they are better off financially. The same is true of Penn State, despite being limited to the capacity of Rec Hall. National TV hasn't really been any benefit, especially with more people likely having access to the duals through Flo than BTN. And there is no dual component to any season accomplishment. Even if this dual wrestled against two Big Ten teams, it wouldn't determine any Big Ten standings or Championship. It would simply be an OOC dual which means nothing other than bragging rights. So what is the price you put on bragging rights?
  5. They absolutely are pitted against each other. There are many competing factions. A lot of people and organizations with their own self interests. That isn't to say that any one of them are acting nefariously. They all can be acting in the interest of the sport. They all may believe that their way is the best way for the sport as a whole. I have never argued that anything should be outlawed. I have never argued that one method is better than the other. I completely understand that it is a free market and that the best product will survive. And the best product might very well be the one from an organization fully focused on the camp and not distracted by having to operate a college wrestling program. And even with that knowledge, I wouldn't argue that the member schools in the NCAA should try to ban prospects from attending private camps. But it is a simple fact that additional entities taking revenue streams away from college wrestling programs does have a negative impact, and yes, can kill, collegiate programs. It is also possible that these additional organizations actually increase interest in the sport which also benefits these collegiate programs. It isn't an all or nothing proposition and it can change from area to area and entity to entity. As consumers of wrestling, we have the ability to choose which entities to support. I am asking what people's thoughts are on these competing factions. As I have said, repeatedly, I see benefits and drawbacks to both and haven't formed an opinion one way or the other. It is possible women's coaches at Cumberland, Menlo, Simon Fraser, and elsewhere love the idea of D1 programs operating camps. I don't know. Maybe they see it as a way to legitimize the sport, increase access for women, and it gives them many camps to visit and get exposure to more girls to recruit. It is also possible that they fear that there will be many girls camps that are not attracting enough girls and are not providing enough exposure to the schools that have made the investment.
  6. I never once implied a lack of fairness. I was asking what people involved with women's wrestling think about it. Which one is the better driver for growing and sustaining women's wrestling? I asked because I specifically know there are pros and cons. For instance, to draw another parallel in your state of Pennsylvania. You have the PSAC wrestling programs which have for years used their camps to fund their programs. Unlike many well funded schools, the camps at these schools don't give a financial bonus to the coaches but actually raise money to cover the operation of the programs. So for these schools, the health and financial success of their camps is directly tied to the viability of their programs. At the same time, you have individuals, like Ken Chertow, who began to offer camps to athletes. On the one hand, you end up with dedicated professionals who stake their livelihood on developing wrestlers and marketing their camps. This is great for those wrestler that have more options and that can get more development. But it also adds increased competition to the camp system and makes it harder for the college programs to be viable. The competition from other camp systems is tied to the demise of college wrestling as much, and possibly even more, in the last 20 years. (Title 9 is nearly 50 years old the "harm" came in the first 30 years of the act, not the last 20.) And since you mentioned it as a possible benefit. I do not believe that holding a camp for women will lead to adding the sport at a school. Why take on the financial burden when you're already getting all of the financial benefit? So after all that, your whole argument is that you don't have an opinion on the issue?
  7. Pinnum

    Common Sense in Big 10 scheduling

    Kind of... But not really. They do now present an award for the best record in the conference dual schedule. However, a few years ago, I contacted the Big Ten office and asked for information on the history of the Conference Team championships. They provided me with the tournament results. I asked for the dual championship history and they replied that they do not track that data in the conference records. They said that the Big Ten champion team was only determined by duals between 1922-1925. Here is the Big Ten historical data on their website which seems in line with what I was told: https://s3.amazonaws.com/bigten.org/documents/2018/9/10/Wrestling.pdf
  8. Pinnum

    Common Sense in Big 10 scheduling

    The duals are simply a sample of individual matches to get individual matchups within the conference for seeding in the individual tournament the conference holds. The conference results in the team score doesn't mean anything (though fans and coaches like the bragging rights). The Big Ten is fine with multiple teams finishing the conference schedule undefeated.
  9. I am not defining anything. I actually haven't formulated an opinion on the matter. Which is why I was looking to hear from others. Women's wrestling is something I have never been involved with but I am supportive of the work others have done in the space. I am perplexed by the pivot to rant about Title 9...
  10. I didn't think I would have to provide such clarification, but... Of course, I am not saying it should be outlawed. I am more asking, if you're an advocate for women and girls wrestling. Would you direct girls to attend these camps, or would you think they don't serve women's wrestling and direct girls to not attend them and instead to attend ones put on by women's wrestling programs.
  11. I was curious what other people think of this topic. I have noticed that with the growth of girls wrestling there have been D1 programs interested in starting girls only wrestling camps while these schools don't offer women's wrestling. On the one hand: D1 program with good wrestlers and coaches can provide instruction to girls. They often spend more money marketing their camps. One the other hand: Schools that haven't invested into women's wrestling are making money off girls wrestling and are attracting girls to their camps that likely would have attended a camp at school that sponsors women's wrestling and those schools who have made the investment into women's wrestling could, no doubt, use the exposure for their school and the funding for their women's team. Also, they are likely to get to meet more women wrestlers who can be role models for them. What are your thoughts on this?
  12. Pinnum

    Will Kerry McCoy ever be on the hot seat?

    Who is "They" you're talking about here?
  13. Pinnum

    Flo big match promotion - question

    I don't doubt that for a moment. But part of the issue is that duals don't matter in the season structure (yeah, we know fans turn out to duals because they are ideally packaged collection of matches pitting two teams against each other but that doesn't mean duals matter). The Flo competitive advantage, in my opinion, is the ability to tell stories and go deeper than simply showing matches. Any media company can buy rights and show matches. Flo is informed and digs deep. Selling the team rivalries and the histories makes the duals more significant than just having one of the matches be between two potential All-Americans. You're going to face the structural limitations that come from duals not having any significance within the season other than bragging rights. But selling fans on rivalries of team will make fans more engaged. And the matches that have top ranked guys will still happen at the same rate. If the problem is fans feeling like they are sold something and then delivered something else that is lesser than what they was advertised, the solution is to sell what you can guarantee and that is a team vs team contest. The key is developing a storyline so that people pick a side and become vested even if they aren't fans of those teams. Wrestling fans everywhere have taken a side in Iowa vs Penn State and in Bedlam's Oklahoma vs Oklahoma State. There is no reason that can't happen for many other duals.
  14. Pinnum

    Flo big match promotion - question

    The question is how does Flo promote their product without upsetting customer who feel like they were sold a bill of goods? It is not Flo's job to build brands for athletes. But driving interest in wrestling and having people watch wrestling while feeling like they are getting a good value from their subscriber fees will build wrestling's following and allow individuals to become acquainted with athletes. Building a brand for athletes that go MMA is horrible for Flo. They are literally developing customers for competing media companies. With a wrestling focus, those athletes will remain within the events that Flo distributes and more importantly, the college brands that Flo distributes. It is better for Flo to have people who are passionate about wrestling not wrestlers. Next in line is better to have people passionate about wrestling teams (Team USA, Team Russia, Team Iran, Penn State, Iowa, Arizona State, etc) than it is to be passionate about wrestlers.
  15. Pinnum

    Flo big match promotion - question

    How did that work out for everyone? We know that lineups are going to change. That is a reality of every sport. It is irrational to think that it won't happen. And I am not sure what possible future brands for athletes has to do with anything.