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patmilkovich last won the day on May 31 2018

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  1. The only thing I saw that would concern me as a coach or a referee was PSU stayed locked in place with the claw...if he was a little more savvy, he would have "looked busy." "Looking Busy" is and art too, whether in neutral, top, or bottom. He could have gotten off the leg hook and moved out to the side. OSU wasn't going anywhere with the claw anyway. He could have moved out to the side and bumped the elbow with his knee and OSU goes flat and his wrists are vulnerable, and then he has to work back up. It's a game and one needs to learn how to play it. Controlling someone from top is a great weapon, just like getting out on bottom is a great weapon. Which of the two has the knowledge and training to use the weapon better. If the 5 count limits use of the hands on the ankle (to help the bottom guy apparently) then smart wrestlers learn how to improvise...pinching the down man's leg or throwing in legs. Not his fault the bottom man has no defense or counter. Rick Sanders used to say when he was on bottom, he had his opponent right where he wanted him. That's the way to look at it. I don't understand why folks are so against "riding." There are a lot of guys you will never get a chance to turn. The next best option is to control and limit, tire him out, make him work to keep position, keep him from scoring, frustrate him, get your RT, and get in his head because he knows you are better on top than he is on bottom. They eliminated RT in HS, went to top, bottom, neutral, defer, and that changed the quality of T/B wrestling. No more skills and strategies to build on at college. The guys who did have good T/B coaching in HS seem to be very effective in college. Furthermore, you have so many coaches and kids wrestling freestyle, which virtually eliminates T and B (of course it's easier to eliminate folkstyle T/B). So, they get in college and flatten out on bottom, look helpless, and lobby the ref for help or rule changes to help them. Watch the NCAA's. Lots of kids on bottom breaking down to their elbows...Big NO NO, or they get broken down to their stomach, or they get their wrists caught. For a multitude of reasons, I would much prefer you to have my ankles than my wrists, but that's just me.
  2. marmsd said: I don't think anyone says he's a "bad guy" for doing it...just that it leads to an apparent strategy (one growing in popularity, perhaps) that is both somewhat frustrating and boring to watch. I have nothing against any fan who thinks dropping to the leg>move up>drop and/or pinch/hook legs and/or constantly just run the bottom guy out>rinse>repeat is cutting edge supa-skill stuff...have at it. I'd bet you'll re-watch this year's event with sheer delight.But apparently it wasn't such a fan who started this particular discussion. It seems that the guy who is adept at top is being vilified for his ability to control his opponent. "bad guy" was a euphemism/expression not to be taken literally. My point was that it's not the top guys responsibility to make the bottom man look skilled. Being on bottom is an opportunity to score and limit RT, unless, of course, you aren't very good there...then you just help the top guy do his job...It's the bottom man's responsibility to limit the control the top man has over him. When you can exhibit dominance, mastery, and control, you deserve to be rewarded, whether from neutral, top, or bottom. When you can't do that you do not deserve a reward. RT is the reward for dominating on top, whether you turn him or not..it's still domination/control/mastery. Escaping or reversing is bottom's reward and it limits top's RT. That's domination/control/mastery from bottom. "I have nothing against any fan who thinks dropping to the leg>move up>drop and/or pinch/hook legs and/or constantly just run the bottom guy out>rinse>repeat is cutting edge supa-skill stuff...have at it." If it isn't "supa-skill stuff" then how come the bottom man can't get out? Actually, when you get on top of some wrestlers, you're damn lucky to get the RT let alone turn him. So that's worth something and if it is bothersome, he should learn to get out efficiently and effectively. Problem solved. Regarding your remark about this year's event...first of all, I won't "re-watch" it....it was just ok. don't care for the hand touch TD's, the 5 count below, the time wasting bricks, mat returns (or lack thereof) or most of the top/bottom wrestling in general...with a few exceptions. Regarding your last sentence. Not exactly sure what your point was there or to whom it was aimed but perhaps you can add clarity to that for me. Respectfully, Patrick Milkovich
  3. Several posters are upset that the top man can drop down to a leg, or below the waist, for a 5 count then move up and drop back down for another 5 count. Having a keen knowledge of the rules is your advantage. If the rule is drop down, 5 count, move up, repeat, then why is he the bad guy for wrestling within the rules? He didn't make them. To me, if I was the bottom man, I would use my knowledge of that rule and find a way to keep the top man down there for more than a 5 count. As far as legs go. If you don't like being in legs, learn the symptoms of when you are vulnerable, learn the prevention techniques and then learn the counters if caught in them or the techniques to stalemate. Stalemating is also smart wrestling. Makes no sense to me to give up points/concede when you can work for "he gets nothing, I get nothing." Although he is accumulating RT. Knowing the rules and wrestling within them is only smart wrestling. American wrestling used to be referred to as "Catch as Catch can." Slowly we are moving away from that. Used to be that the top man could put a figure 4 around the waist or a full nelson from the side. It was determined that the F4 was mainly used, not so much to turn a guy, as to punish him...not sure why the full nelson from the side was eliminated....anyway, the main point is, all coaches should have a keen knowledge of the rules and then pass the knowledge to their wrestlers so they can manage their matches more effectively.
  4. jp...since it appears you are referring to my comment, I would be very interested to read your dissertation on the simplicity of teaching top/bottom wresting. I enjoy learning from others.
  5. BMon, In the body of my response, being on your stomach is one of the prime reasons one gets "ridden," or turned. Why is he on his stomach to begin with? There are a multitude of methods to prevent that. Virtually everything in wrestling has a stimulus/response mechanism involved, called "setups." There are setups to takedowns, setups for riding, mat returns, breakdowns, pinning, escaping, and reversals, etc. Once a wrestler understands those processes, it rarely matters whether he is on top, bottom, or neutral. The S/R methods all share commonalities between humans and they are predictable. Trying to adequately explain, verbally, the techniques of riding is extremely challenging. Top and bottom wrestling are the most difficult aspects of wrestling to learn and to teach. It's becoming a lost art and I understand why so many coaches and wrestlers like freestyle. It’s way easier. Consequently, it's why I love folkstyle, a wrestler can't be good in just one facet, he has to exhibit comprehension and competency in all three facets. On bottom, one of the important techniques is to keep your hands/wrists free. Watch the NCAA's and notice how many wrestlers break down to an elbow while on bottom. Big NO, NO. Wrists are begging to be controlled. Stay off your elbows, keep your hands/wrists free, stay off your belly, and you've just gotten light years better from bottom. Riding or controlling the bottom man doesn't mean you grow roots on his ankle or stay stuck in one position. The true art of top wrestling is learning to change off, switch sides, and work the bottom man from head to ankles, while making him carry your weight, keeping him out of balance, and creating pressures and torques to make him use more of his strength and energy to neutralize or counteract all the forces. You and others may call it stalling, but it isn't. It has a cumulative effect on the bottom man's stamina and psyche. He's not scoring points, times ticking down, he's frustrated, fighting hard wasting energy and getting tired, top guy is gaining a point, and you're in his head because he knows he can't get out unless you let him out. If/when he does get out, his reactions may be slower because he wasted so much energy on bottom...and your'e still in his head with riding time. Many times in close matches with quality kids, the determining factor its RT. That's why RT is an asset to the sport. No one should be given a free out or up, just because he can't do it himself. If he doesn't like being on bottom, learn to get out and you are now in your desired "neutral." If someone can dominate you on top, he deserves some reward. Appropriately, that is riding time, control time, you suck on bottom time... call it whatever, but the top guy should not be penalized and taken out of a position of dominance/control and put on his feet just because the bottom man is inept. That's actually a form of "income inequality." There are plenty of lousy bottom wrestlers who can't get out but are difficult to turn because they've spent so much time there. So RT is his penalty and top's reward.
  6. I have to respectfully disagree with the comments that it is somehow the top man's stalling that's keeping the bottom man down or makes wrestling boring. At what point does it become the bottom man's responsibility to control that position. I was taught that being on bottom was my opportunity to score points and to limit the top man's accumulation of riding time control and either get me to neutral or reverse him. I also learned that, just like on the feet for TD's, there are things I can do on bottom to create setups and counters that allow me to escape or reverse in a short amount of time, regardless of the top guy's tactics. It doesn't matter if the top man catches/rides ankles, puts in legs, spirals, or whatever. My first responsibility is prevention (i.e., movement or standup on the whistle and establishing hand control) and then it's countering. When you are lousy on bottom, it makes the top man's job much easier. Just like when you are lousy on top. It makes the bottom man's job much easier to get out. When you get broken down to your stomach, break down to your elbows, let your wrists/ankles get tied up, don't control his hands/wrists, don't create movement/get to your feet, get hip separation, or let a guy get legs in...that's your fault or your coach's fault...yours for either not having learned/drilled the techniques necessary for success or your coach's for not having taught you those techniques needed to succeed. I just find it utterly amazing that instead of learning all the different methods that would help one on bottom, then the discussion turns to eliminating those positions or requirements. You want more action in the top/bottom positions? Award 1 pt or every 30 seconds of RT. That would force both wrestlers to be incredibly more active. As some of you folks ponder criticizing/reacting to my opinion/perspective, be careful that you don't walk into a setup.
  7. haha gimp...actually, there was plenty of action, just some good counters too...it was a hard cut that year from 152 to 126
  8. SORRY SMSU add another tie to your total, we tie: 1975....My dual draws: 1-1 Fritz PSU, 1-1 Martin OSU, 4-4 Corso Purdue, 1-1 Reinwand Wis.....
  9. Here is my opinion why top athletes use during training . Peer pressure, to be “cool.” To fit in, not developing the techniques/habits to deal with stress, problems, boredom, etc., without the use of drugs/alcohol, immaturity, low self-esteem, everybody does it, it won't hurt me (invulnerable), and the probably the biggest reason is it feels good. Drugs/alcohol do for them what they do not know how to do for themselves…and then they become dependent on those methods in order to cope, deal with stress, problems, life, relax, celebrate, etc. During my career, I have witnessed plenty of athletes from various sports go from great to good and good to fair because of alcohol/drug use. For many athletes, the only thing that changes for them when season starts is now they have to go to practice…they don’t alter any of their drug/alcohol habits. Yes, there are those select few who can still “party” and do well. There are always exceptions, but let me say two things here; 1) for every kid who can use and maintain success, there are many, many more who cannot…and 2) I would bet that those who use and still perform well are probably paying a price somewhere else in their life. We just don't get to see that part. If you are underage and using alcohol/drugs, you have to change your character. You must become more deceptive and dishonest, lie more, and scheme. When you get comfortable being dishonest/sneaky in one area of your life it becomes easier to be dishonest/sneaky in other areas of your life. Those traits become your habit/character. Just because something is legal, certainly doesn’t preclude it from being harmful physically, psychologically, or emotionally.
  10. Excerpt from AWN Reders' Challenge - Rules "article: The brick? Now we’re trying to emulate football, basketball, and baseball to microscopically determine a call with video review? It’s wrestling. Things happen fast and creating rules where control is fleeting will encourage more “bricks.” This disrupts the flow, the momentum, and even the outcome of the match. Part of the requirement of wrestling is developing stamina and timeouts hurt the guys with the best conditioning. Rules that allow the match to flow seamlessly with minimal interruptions is a keynote of the game. Rules should reduce or even eliminate questionable calls, not encourage them. As an example, the hand touch is not indicative of command, mastery, and dominance. Those three components were obvious for scoring when the rule was “supporting points” had to be down on the mat. There were fewer interruptions to the match. There is some argument that stalemate calls should be stalling calls. From my perspective, if one cannot successfully break away or the offensive man is in danger of being scored upon by a great counter, a smart wrestler then creates a situation where neither man can score. And what’s wrong with that? Should he just relinquish the points? We want to penalize someone for protecting himself? Why should anyone be punished for being smart and savvy? A stalemate isn’t bad; it’s smart wrestling to be creative and save oneself
  11. Thanks Gimpeltf...Yeah, I'm a little deficient technologically...I have a DVD that was transferred from VHS and I"m trying to post it on the website...perhaps someone can tell me how to do that.
  12. 1972 CHAMPIONS not sure if I did this correctly...this is the highlight video of the 1972 NCAA Championships...perhaps someone can talk me thru the process if this didn't work
  13. Tobus...Yes, those big guys were were seen as you described and put fannies in the seats and the media couldn't help talking about them. Great publicity! I'm helping a local h.s. and was talking to a kid who wants to wrestle...but he weighs 330...has no clue how to lose wt., but wants to be involved in the sport..comes in everyday and does what he can, but he'll never make the wt. ..and he actually has some athletic ability. So, as you stated, we will either lose him to some other sport or he will end up doing nothing. My dad was always proud of the fact that wrestling was a sport that any kid, any size, could be a state champion and compete in college. Unfortunately.... Guys like Wojo, Thacker, Taylor, Jackson, etc., were fun to watch and great promoters of wrestling, and when they hit the mat, the whole building shook!
  14. Sparky...you are absolutely correct...they did separate in '74...anyway, there were some tough hombres that came out of that "college" division and I wish they would include DII/DIII in the NCAA's now.
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