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conanNY

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  1. Absolutely.... Ryan should have been hit for backing out (the new rule) JUST prior to being hit the last time. Ryan backed out with NO turn in and NO effort to stay in... Stall by rule... He was gassed... 2 of his TD were slide by counters to Smiths initial slide by attempt. Great match... Very Entertaining
  2. NO.. If you really think this out.. this would be a terrible thing for Folk Style wrestling. The conversation to just 'give away' points is bad. Wrestlers take risks rolling through... if we gave points away, no one would take any risks. The 'scramble' has become one of the MOST exciting aspects of wrestling. Why would you want to remove it.?? When 'diving' to the ankle becomes a "repetitive" method of 'creating a stalemate' then it should be called for stalling. We've already implemented that EVERY drop down below the waist is stalling... and after watching this past season, it is very evident that this is NOT true..... but yet, we have the rule (and we keep adding exceptions to the drop down almost weekly).
  3. Two of the best rules changes over the last 10 years or so.. has been: 1. The expanded OOB (along with the line being in)... and tagging on this.. the expansion of the NF and Fall beyond the line. 2. The new OOB stalling... ie.. the back-out / push-out / action call. I was VERY suspect of this rule when it came out. The implementation and coaches acceptance of this rule seemed highly improbable... Imagine my surprise as nearly all coaches have embraced this.. and have adamantly instructed their wrestlers to " work in bounds ", and the objection to their wrestler being called for the back-out/push-out is minimal. It's Great.. the wrestler now fight to 'STAY IN'. I hate the rule... but I LOVE the results. As far as injury resulting from scoring tables.. etc... I'm not seeing it. I have YET to personally see any injury as a result of running into a table or floor, above and beyond any minor bruise... Where facilities allow... should we move scoring tables back and add additional matting beyond the required 5'.. absolutely.. But let's not jump up and down screaming that the sky is falling... This is NOT a big issue.
  4. Cooch1... I think you're correct.. if there is a push to keep wrestling action active.. there will never be a need for the push out rule. I'm not in favor of it... plain and simple.. It's NOT wrestling. That being said, I do understand the rational for it, we think that the rule will keep wrestling in the center... and that result may be true, but I'm not sure. That being said... I question this: If a wrestler goes out.. full go.. and gains a 'fair' lead... why hasn't he EARNED the right to, let's call it, "Wrestle Smart". I've always felt that, that wrestler has earned the right to no longer 'Go For Broke'. Think about it... you're winning the Big 10 finals by 4 points... Why on earth would you continue to Go Balls to the wall, and Go for Broke... If you ended up losing because you did something stupid, you'd spend the rest of your life wondering, "why the hell did I do that"... !! NO other sport requires it... !! It would be like saying, why doesn't EVERY football team use an 'on side kick' or 'flee flicker' every time that they have possession. Simple... they are VERY, VERY, low probability plays...!! When they do get it, it's a game changer... but that's only maybe 1 out of 15 times. When they don't get it... it's just bad play calling. Why would we require a wrestler to use very low probability holds or actions after he's wrestled a hard and aggressive match. I don't mean to say that he can stop wrestling.. but he doesn't have to do anything stupid. The losing wrestler can ALWAYS go for broke... he's got nothing to lose. I'm not saying cheat... but I'd rather be the guy standing on the top of the podium, because I wrestled smart... that they the guy who "had it all locked up, because I EARNED it," and blew it.
  5. New York’s premier dual tournament CALL 716-946-7362 Date: July 17 & 18 (Friday and Saturday) (2016 we will include Middle School on Sunday) Location – NCCC (Niagara County Community College) approx 10 miles east of Niagara Falls, NY Format – Federation weights (plus 3 pounds), Dual meet tournament. Each Team is Guaranteed 5 duals. MAX 32 Teams. Federation rules and interpretations. College out of bounds. High school age participants, NO GRADS.(or 5th years). Teams can be Club or High School. Matches – 1:30, 1:30, 1:30 Teams will be bracketed into “Flights” (2). Friday – Flight A will weigh in at 6:45 am to 7:45 am, Friday morning and wrestle 8:00, 9:45, 11:30 and 1:15, then excused for the day, Flight B will weigh in, 1:45pm to 2:45pm and wrestle 3:00, 4:45, 6:30, and 8:15 (1:45 between start times) Saturday – Flight B will wrestle 8:00 and 9:45, Flight A will wrestle 11:30 and 1:15. Semi-Finals 3:30, Finals 5:30. Wrestling to be completed by 7:30. Sunday – (2016 – Middle School Duals) – Niagara Tourism will provide information on attractions and Family opportunities. Officiating – Nationally recognized (NHSCA Seniors) Officials from across the country will be utilized, with local senior Officials making up the balance. Cost – $500 per Team (rosters of 14 – 18) with $40 fee for each additional roster member. Two (2) Coaches wristbands are included with entry fee, additional can be purchased for $30 each (no Max). Awards – Fight Shorts will be awarded to Champion and Runner up TEAMS. (14) Trophy for highest finishing High School Team (No All-stars) College Coaches will be invited and admission fees waived (with ID). General Admission Fee $10 for Friday (both Flights), Saturday – General Admission Fee – $10 for all Flights, Housing opportunities information to follow. . CALL 716-946-7362 Mighty Niagara Duals 2015 Flyer.pdf
  6. These two guys wrestled an excellent match... I could care less who won... I just like to see great wrestling. That being said... You can't just read half of the rule... and only enforce the part that you like.. He DID lock hands... BUT... he gets reaction time to release... Here's the rule (the case book interpretation)...: Rule 5 / Infractions: RULING: The wrestler in the advantage position could lock hands once the bottom wrestler's weight is supported entirely by both feet. (GO BACK and look at the video - he's standing... ) Once the wrestler brings the opponent to the mat, the wrestler with the advantage has reaction time to break the grip. Reaction time = "Up to 2 seconds" (not 2 seconds .. but up to 2 seconds.. THAT'S 1.9 seconds) .... as the lead official stated himself... there was 1 second on the clock... (hmmm... that's less than 2 seconds) The case book scenario is EXACTLY the same as this situation... So.. back to what everyone is saying... It's already in the books... so... I'll leave this one alone now...
  7. Agreed definitely clasped. .. anytime you go from standing position to the mat ( TD or Mat Return)... reaction time should be part of the call.... when locking occurs during mat wrestling, locking is almost always immediately called. .imo... reaction time should have been factored in... especially on such a high profile match ..OT
  8. Why was it the right call... ??? "....The mere touching of the defensive wrestler's hands to the mat is not considered a change in this position unless the hands are weight-bearing, in which case the offensive wrestler is ALLOWED REACTION time to release the lock....... " If the lock occurred (as he said) with 1 second left.... where is the reaction time... ??? when reaction time is this close... splitting hairs here... OT would have been a good choice ...
  9. Interesting.. Early whistle, no doubt. I'm gathering that some portion of the wrestlers were still over or in the cylinder. The question of, if the video review had audio, would be paramount. To be honest.. the video review equipment for a National Tournament is flat out embarrassing.. !! Go back a minute earlier on the previous video review... This one puzzles me... : Check the attached image... CLEARLY a TD..,.. but even after review they STILL missed it... !!??? The video review camera had a perfect angle on this too...
  10. Absolutly .... That being said.... In the quest for 'more scoring', 'more excitement' It's sometimes disregarded, and you'll see points awarded anyway. This has been a rule/interpretation for over 30 years.... Yet... I can't beleive how many times I've had to re-explain this over and over again... (Yup - even to my own college coach)
  11. This is what I call the "DAD" syndrome. When a Dad, (but could be mom's for girls programs) who has very little knowledge or experience at either a certain sport or coaching background, decides to get involved in their kids programs. Don't get me wrong... Their INTENTIONS are GOOD... but they unable to see the bigger picture, and realize that what they are indeed doing, is counter productive to the sport. I cringe when I step onto the matt, and there is a Dad sitting/standing there coaching. I personally don't know any of you guys posting... but I see this all too often... In youth sports. Fathers, thinking they are doing a good thing for kids, stepping up and often volunteering their time, or taking over kid's or lower level programs. Ice Hockey is brutal for having fathers strap on skates, Baseball dad's teaching basics, wrestling and soccer dad's, and the list goes on... When you get one of these 'Dad's' - Most of the time, these guys have very little experience - possibly some middle school or HS playing day's, and have NEVER been trained in teaching kids. (There are the exceptions) Along with 1000's of colligate matches, I've also worked 1000's of HS and below matches at National tournaments. This spring/summers National federation events were no exception... Some of the WORST youth parent coaches I've ever seen. Usually the younger the kids... the worse the 'DAD'S' They know a handful of rules from when they competed at Podunk High School 20 years ago, and have no idea what they are talking about. I often stand there, looking at these youth kids, and wonder "who taught you this... !!, This is HORRABLE..." These guys are teaching BAD Mechanics, POOR wrestling holds and technics, and absolutely HORRENDOUS ETHICS... They jump all over the Mat, like they are Tom Brands, yelling and screaming about illegal holds, and FOREVER saying... "HE'S LOCKING HANDS..., CHICKEN WING..."" UGHHH.... Just yelling ANYTHING to get their wrestler out of a situation. After some of these Duals... I often would hand them the rules book, and ask them to look up the rule they were having objection too... Every time..... "when did they change that..." etc...etc.... I actually pulled a few Dad-Coaches aside after dual meets, and asked them to show me their technic on holds, and would them ask them... WHO taught you this... ??? The sad part is... Someday, these kids will grow up, and go out coach other kids all these BAD habits they learned from their poorly able Dad-coaches. When 1/2 of the wrestling community (the NCAA) swiftly stepped in and made the "Neck Bow" Illegal because it puts extreme pressure on the Neck, and HS, Middle School, and Club coaches KNOW this - BUT BLATANTY INSIST that "...because the HS Federation hasn't made this illegal yet... I STILL want to teach it to kids.... " - THIS JUST REAKS of the "DAD Syndrome. In an OPEN College tourn late last season... a DII red shirt kid decided to use the "Neck BOW, and dove over the top... I stopped it immediately, and looked at him in disbelief. I thought for a second... and thought.... well.. the kids a red shirt... maybe he doesn't know the NEW rule... I PD's the hold.. and explained to him and his coach (who was now at the table) that '.. as soon as he dives over... IT'S illegal... !!!) and Merry Christmas.. I'll be nice and only PD the situation... What the hell... it's an OPEN tournament... Of course the kid does it AGAIN... UGGHHH.... Now I give it the deserved penalty... and the coach stands there at the table and argues the point.. I responded with ".... seriously... did you EVEN watch the NCAA video... they spent 10 MINUTES on this..." This is the kind of thing you get, when coaches have just enough information to make themselves dangerous... When you start boasting and quoting MIDDLE SCHOOL coaching success, you've lost all credibility... Middle School sports are JUST THAT... it's a bunch of 11-12-13 year old kids... If the kid was THAT good... he probably skipped the middle school level, and went strait to Varsity. Middle School level is for LEARNING.... LEARNING.... learning the BASICS... When you start teaching kids holds like Flemings 'Neck Bow' ...This is a recipe for disaster... and possibly for the future of the kids in the program. You can try to spin it anyway you like... and start telling everyone how the rules book doesn't say it's illegal by application... etc... etc... Your wrong... I'm not sure what the sense of teaching it is... ?? I'm MUCH more lenient than most officials (when it comes to HS), and I'd stop it PD.. If your wrestler does it... almost EVERY High School official will stop it PD It's WELL within the rules book to stop it.
  12. I guess you missed the point... It's about ethics.... not if you can make the guy cry or inflict pain... This hold is DANGEROUS.. That's why the NCAA made it illegal. Not because it hurts, not because it's tough. It's Dangerous.. It's not dangerous because of choking.. (as others have stated, because if done correctly, it doesn't choke) It's dangerous because there is EXTREAM pressure on the neck ... not a little bit.... a LOT... !! For the same reason a Bow & Arrow or Back Bow taken directly over the head or shoulder is illegal... It's Dangerous... You're talking about Life Long neck and back injuries... A spladle... or guillotine.. yeah... you might pull the guys groin muscle, or get a stretched tendon... and it hurts like hell... Yeah.. I get it... But any injury do to that hold.. .won't paralyze you... Flemings 'Neck Bow' as it has been called.. . IS illegal because it's dangerous... not because it hurts... I sat with him right after the rules committee met with him. we went through the hold in a number of ways. It never chokes you, done the way Fleming does it... BUT it DOES apply heavy, heavy pressure on the neck.. The fact that the HS Federation has not caught up with this yet... is NO excuse.. If HS kids start to use this.. it will become illegal as fast as you can blink. If you are a coach with ANY ethics... you know this... and you know it's dangerous.. Shame on you, if you teach this.. This is like kids watching pro wrestling, and then trying out in a HS wrestling match. you're trying to learn a move that you KNOW is dangerous from watching a video clip.... AND THEN you want to teach what you THINK you know to high school (and maybe smaller) kids... GOD ... How irresponsible... !! There will always be those who can find a way to believe that this is a good move to use... I guess we've found them... I've said my peace.. ...
  13. Why would any coach with any ethics want to show this to a bunch of High School kids... !!?? This is a dangerous hold... plain and simple. It works because of the pressure applied to the neck. What Fleming does is force the head and neck directly over the top. The result is that the wrestlers ENTIRE body weight (and part of Flemings own weight) is forced over the neck in a crunched position. To make it worse, Fleming would turn the head sideways (locking on the jaw).. removing any type of strength of the defensive wrestler to protect his neck. (ie.. like doing a bridge with the head strait vs sideways). The lock (although not directly on the neck), presses the jaw into the defensive wresters own neck. (very different that the pressure of a half nelson, or guillotine). The first year... the NCAA mandated that the lock had to be OFF the neck (at some point, the lock would eventually slide over the neck, but it was hard to catch. As the defensive wrestler would turn, it would move back to the jaw, and by then it would be NF criteria. Hard to stop a situation after the fact.) The NEXT season (after Fleming graduated) the NCAA flat out made any lock where the motion goes 'over the head' Illegal... No PD, no warning. This season the NCAA is moving even further, making cross body locks (around the neck and arm) holds considered possible stalling holds. HS federation considers any hold PD... even though it may be locked on the jaw.. the extreme pressure on the jaw/neck would make this PD. repeated application and PD calls, puts this in the illegal category. James Fleming was a average wrestler... with a unique hold that he exploited. He pinned some top wrestlers with this hold, no doubt (stieber) When others in this thread, and past threads on this hold, describe the pressure ".......If Feels like your Jaw bone is about to explode from the pressure...." you gotta wonder about the legality of the hold. I get that there is NO direct verbage in HS or freestyle wrestling addressing this hold. But at the highest level of NCAA competition, they deem that his hold is dangerous... why would you want kids to start using this... ???
  14. So... Top guy puts legs in... (everybody's favorite)... he attempts a power half / 3/4 nelson / reinforced half ... (whatever you want to call it... ) and is UNABLE to turn the defensive wrestler... NOW... The defensive wrester STANDS... !!! Does the count start... !!!??? This happens ALL THE TIME.... and PAST interpretation: If the leg 'ride' (cuz' that's what he's doing)... is on BEFORE the defensive wrestler stands.. 1 offense - Stale Mate.. 2 offense - Stale Mate "On You Bottom Man" 3 offense - STALLING on BOTTOM....!!! So now - as per the NEW Rule.. - is this STALLING on TOP... !!!??
  15. whoa, whoa, whoa,... stop the train... !!! I think, first we are jumping the gun here... There is NO rule change... !! The rule remains the same in the book... What was done, was there was a "clarification / Interpretation" given by the... well.. by those upstairs. The 'Clarification' was given to everyone on 2/24... basically AFTER the dual meet season, and just prior to qualifiers and championships. Therefore, you may have noticed a difference in the way it was being called in the post season tournaments. The puzzling thing was.. the explanations seem to contradict each other... ! The first clarification said that it is considered a TD if the wrestler applying the cradle could get: The cradle lock and two feet and one hand on the mat. - 2 TD BUT... the second clarification said.. it is NOT a TD until the wrestler applying the cradle breaks the wrestler 'down to his hip'.... No TD until hip... HUH.... In the first clarification.. the wrestler doesn't need to be on the hip to be awarded a TD.... !!! in the second clarification... the wrestler is on TWO knees, and is also on his hand or elbow.. BUT YET he is NOT taken down until he is broken down to the hip..... it seems to me that in the second clarification.. if he is on his knees and hand/arm.. he has ALREADY met the first clarifications criteria... !!!!!! WHY are we wanting to give out REALLY bad cradles as TD's... !! standard criteria.. was that the wrestler applying the cradle had to 1- defeat the arm 2- demonstrate the ability to get 'hip to hip' (and that only had to be a split second). I think that this new 'clarification' has really turned the cradle TD into a real Cluster F#*K..!!
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