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BAC

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BAC last won the day on November 25 2021

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  1. J'Den's going up in 2023? Not 2024? That blows. One less potential world title. And hurts USA's chance at another team gold.
  2. LOL. I'm talking *current* D1 wrestlers, not past. I'm also not talking about competition, obviously, not practice -- although even in practice, PSU doesn't have any current 3xers, so the most total would be 4.
  3. Curious to see those examples. Not a fan of late-match face-mushing or end-of-match head-nodding, as in the clip above, but Lee has done that too, and I'm not aware of either getting an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty point for it. Gable's more celebratory/showboaty, but a backflip won't get you a penalty point either, and some (me included) think a little extra celebration can be good for the sport. Gable's more willing to goad on Twitter but that's off the mat, and I don't think he's ever crossed a line there either. I don't think its right for Hodge voters to punish conduct that is within the rules and which the refs themselves didn't see fit to punish.
  4. Its a criteria, but I wouldn't feel comfortable saying "Oh, wrestler X is slightly more sportsmanlike than Y, so I give him the edge," since sportsmanship can't be quantified in the same way that wins and pins can be. I view it as a criteria that all wrestlers are presumed to have equally -- but you can hurt your Hodge case if you do something decidedly unsportsmanlike. As between Lee and Steveson, you can prefer Lee's behavior, but that's subjective. Unless you can point to something Gable did that falls below the bar and would be considered unsportsmanlike, I would treat the two the same on that category.
  5. Ha, edited to add that right when you posted. But yeah, that's all I have too. Would be really cool if Lee bumped up if he's healthy. I don't think it would tarnish his reputation if he lost, and would amplify it significantly if he won.
  6. I don't think it'll happen, but lets say Lee did go 133, even if only for the PSU dual. Would that be the record for the most prior titles (5) in a D1 match? I can't even think of one where there were 4, apart from Dake v Taylor 2013.
  7. BAC

    GOAT

    Come one man. An Olympic medal is valued more because of the fanfare and media hype but substantially it’s the same thing as a World medal, A little tougher these days because of the fewer weight classes but that’s it’s it (and the brackets are smaller).
  8. BAC

    GOAT

    Sounds like you are defining "greatness" as the most wins in the shortest amount of time. Sort of like a Gorrarian award, but for wins-losses. By that measure, I agree Smith is the guy. I just define it differently. I think GOAT is less about squeezing the most wins in the shortest amount of time, and more about getting being the best overall, mostly defined by wins/titles -- sort of like a career Hodge. But I respect your preference. Cheers.
  9. BAC

    GOAT

    Maybe I'm just not being clear, but you're putting a lot of words in my mouth I never said. Where did I ever say losses don't matter? Of course losses matter. That's why I'd put Cael over the other 4x champs collegiately. A gold after an unbeaten season is usually going to be better than a gold after one where you take losses along the way. I also never said its *solely* about accumulating wins. I do put a very high premium on accumulating wins, absolutely, but there's other relevant factors -- e.g. quality of competition, number of competitors, dominance in winning, lack of losses, longevity, etc. My first post in this thread goes into this, as do others. I'm also not saying its a science or purely objective -- clearly it isn't. But there's not much point to a GOAT conversation if we're not going to try to agree to some common criteria. The main thing I'm saying, and I'll say it again, is that you don't enhance your career by declining to compete. Those who do are, in my view, either giving credit for wins not earned on the mat, or assuming that losses were avoided that were not avoided on the mat. That's why I have an issue with people putting Smith over JB because if he'd just competed, he would have won this, or would have won that. That's the import of the "He's 6 for 6!" argument: that his career was *benefited* by quitting, since 6 for 6. No, sorry, you don't improve your career by quitting. I'm not sure you disagree with this? I'm also not saying that "a season where you compete and lose every match as better than a season where you don't compete" -- I never said that. I might say that to my kid ("better to go 0-12 on the mat than to have played basketball") but for GOAT purposes, I never said losses are BETTER than not competing. That said, I gather we do disagree about whether you can hurt your GOAT argument by continuing to compete. I don't think you always help it, but usually you do, even if you don't win at the same rate. So if, say, Smith had wrestled one extra year and took home a bronze, it is insane to me that some would say his overall career (and case to be GOAT) was now "worse" since he "only" took a bronze, and is now "only" 6 of 7. Granted, I don't think his career would be enhanced THAT much by the bronze, but a little bit. But I'm gathering you'd say that if Smith wrestled an extra year, made the team, and then DNP'd, his career would be worse. Am I right? If so, yeah, we disagree. Not because I think the DNP helps Smith's career (it doesn't), but because I would assign a DNP to any wrestler for the years they didn't compete -- so its a wash. Why does any wrestler deserve better than a DNP for the years they didn't compete? I guess I'd ask you this: lets say JB wins in 2023, makes the 2024 team, and wins the Olympics. Undisputed GOAT. But then he doesn't retire: he LOVES the sport, so he competes another 10 years into his late 40s, makes a couple more world teams but no medals and is, by the end, mostly getting clobbered and piling up losses. He doesn't care, he's just a happy warrior, laying it out on the mat, passing along his passion and knowledge, though by the end he has 10 times the losses Smith had. Is he not the GOAT anymore? Is he "less great" because of those last 10 years?
  10. BAC

    GOAT

    I didn't say losses don't matter. I said that your GOAT resume isn't enhanced by not competing -- thereby avoiding losses. If you think I'm wrong I'm open to hear why.
  11. BAC

    GOAT

    Appreciate the candid response. What I think what this little thought experiment reveals is that part of your higher regard for Smith is, with all due respect, invented. That is, it is based how you *think* he *would* have fared, had he kept on competing. That's the upshot of you agreeing his resume with 6 golds and 0 silver/bronzes is *better* than his hypothetical resume with 6 golds and 2 silver/bronzes. Its the same as you putting Smith over JB because you're assuming if he completed as long as JB did, his results would be better than JB's. By that rationale, I could argue that Gable Steveson is the GOAT, since he's 1 for 1 in World/Olympic level golds, and he was SO amazing in that run that I'm just going to hand him 8 more golds -- because hey, he's just that good! I'll justify it by saying its he beat two multi-time world/Olympic champs en route to gold, and that he was only going to get better since it was his first Senior freestyle year. You wouldn't be able to defeat that argument because you, too, are assuming unearned victories for your guy to put him over JB. My view is you don't get to assign unearned wins to anyone, EVER, in an objective GOAT conversation. You work with the results that are there, not the results that could have been there but weren't. You earn it on the mat, not in fans' minds. To be clear, I'm not criticizing Smith's reasons for retiring, or registering an opinion at all -- because it just doesn't matter. Heck I'll even concede that he probably did have another gold or two in him if he kept competing. But all that enables us to say is "He might have been GOAT if he kept competing, but he didn't, so ... oh well." Just like Gable Steveson. If you don't take the test, you don't get an automatic B, or an automatic A based on past results, you get a Zero. I think your argument isn't really a GOAT argument. Its an argument that Smith has the best 6 year span of any US wrestler. I'd grant you that: your point is that he shined super bright when he wrestled (in his prime), and he sure did. I'd also say his 6 for 6 is one of the most impressive feats in US wrestling ever. But it doesn't make him GOAT, because someone else (JB) racked up more titles. Lastly, I don't buy the recency argument. You're right that it exists, and we see it all the time on these boards, but and sure Snyder would have some fanboys pushing him, soft of like how Dake had fanboys saying his college accomplishments trumped Cael's. But I think those defending JB in the JB v Smith discussion are being pretty objective. In your scenario, I can see some people making the argument that Snyder > JB since JB never had to deal with a world-beater of Sadulaev's caliber, but that argument strikes me as fair game (even though I'd disagree). Personally I'd say of Snyder what I said above: "Amazing career, could've been GOAT if he stuck with it, but he didn't, so..."
  12. BAC

    GOAT

    You are committing a very common GOAT fallacy, which a simple example will illustrate. Let’s say Smith didn’t retire after the ‘92 Games. Let’s say he stuck around for two more quads. He’s a little past his prime so he does not excel as much, but takes home a bronze in ‘93, makes the ‘96 Olympic team but DNPs, takes a world silver in ‘97, doesn’t make the 2000 team and retires. Question: Has he enhances his resume as GOAT, or diminished it? I would say he enhanced it. He still has his 6 for 6, plus added two more world level medals and made another Olympics. But by your argument, you would have to say he hurt it. Now it’s 6 golds in 14 years. Now the inability to medal in the latter two Olympics is a “tough fact to argue around.” Now he was human for over half his career. How can this be? Is 6 medals better than 8? Are we really going to reward someone for hanging up his shoes early, before he could take losses? Is Smith really “less great” because he competed 8 more years, albeit with a lesser degree of success? Clearly not. GOAT measures the sum of a career, not just the years in which you burn brightest in your athletic prime. It is based on ability to win over a career. It isn’t based on ability to avoid losses by not competing. So JB’s 1-for-3 is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he has one Olympic gold — not two, not zero. Smith’s 2 for 2 also irrelevant. The two golds are relevant, but not the number of attempts. At the end of the day, its JB’s 7 golds (6 world, one Olympic) and 3 bronzes against Smith’s 6 golds (4 world, 2 Olympic). You are free to argue that Smith’s second Olympic gold is worth more than JB’s 2 world golds and 3 bronzes, putting Smith ahead. I don’t agree but it’s fair game. What is not fair game is giving JB demerits for suffering losses that Smith didn’t suffer solely because Smith chose to end his career sooner. Longevity enhances, not diminished, the GOAT argument.
  13. BAC

    GOAT

    Definitely stays at 79kg. He has a clean shot at another world gold. There's very little difference between a 2024 bye to the semis and a bye to the finals at 74kg as either way he has to beat Dake -- and if he's good enough to beat Dake in 2024 that should mean he takes the semis match too.
  14. IMO, the young (still in college) guys with the strongest multiple-world-gold potential, outside of current/recent USA team members, are S Lee, A Brooks and C Starocci. All four are on course to win 4 NCAA titles (or more). Spencer "Knee Free" Lee has a stack of 3 cadet/junior golds but is probably a longshot, given how selfishly Iowa sapped his talents for themselves at the USA's expense. But unquestionably he has the mental strength and talent if his knee recovery is full. Brooks has an age-group gold and silver before even starting at PSU, multiple wins over Olympic bronze Amine, and rolls around with DT (and soon Dake). Carter's still green in freestyle but might be the scariest of the bunch -- talented, athletic, hungry. All have styles that translate well to freestyle. I'd add RBY to this list if he showed freestyle interest, but he hasn't. Carr, O'Toole and Lewis are right there too. The college heavies also have a pile of age group golds among them but I not sure I see any of them ripping off a string of senior-level titles.
  15. BAC

    GOAT

    A related question is *how long* will JB be GOAT? My personal guess is he'll be eclipsed within 5-6 years by Snyder. Presumably JB will be done after 2024, and while he may pick up another title in 2023, he's an underdog to make the Olympic team. Snyder, though, is only 26, and could easily wrestle through 2028 -- when he'll still be 2 years younger than JB is now. Considering Snyder has won 8 medals in 8 tries, I doubt he misses many medals between now and 2028. Wouldn't shock me if he eclipsed Big Bruce's total medal haul (13) if he stays healthy. For GOAT purposes, the question is how many of Snyder's medals are gold. Right now, there's a lack of non-Sadulaev challengers. And considering Russia just called up 300,000 reserves to regroup against Ukraine while Vlad rattles his nuke sabre, I don't see UWW's ban getting lifted anytime soon. That could translate to several more golds to a guy who already has four. Heck he'd match Smith before the 2028 quad even starts if he won in 2023 and 24 (4 world, 2 Olympic), not even counting Snyder's 4 other medals. And while some might counter with "but Sadulaev...", you can say the same with Burroughs about Sidakov -- and besides, if Russia's ban isn't lifted by 2024, I have to favor Snyder over Sadulaev anyway, as Sads will have accumulated a few years of rust. Yes, this is optimistic, and there's a whole lot of "what-ifs" to dodge: Injury, HEW, the allure of $ (WWE, MMA), Cox knocking off Snyder at 97kg in '24 (if not '23), and the inevitable new young guns coming up the ranks, foreign and domestic. And Burroughs extending his GOAT "lead" in '23-24 will make it harder. But my money's on Snyder as GOAT by 2028.
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