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KSchlosser last won the day on November 5

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About KSchlosser

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  1. KSchlosser


    I think one of the problems using specific events in quantifying a ranking systems is that not every wrestler has the same opportunity to compete in the same number of events because they didn't exist for every generation. While todays modern era wrestlers have the advantage in the number events that could earn points they are dealing with changing weight classes and number of weights, evolving rules, diplomaitic decisions, nation building, amateurism rules, and a variety of other factors. I do think the wrestlers before 1951 don't get the credit they deserve because of lack of opportunity when compiling all time rankings. Think of the different era's of baseball players and how the game has changed when comparing stats from decade to decade. In looking to compliment FT rankings I looked for constant events. Olympic Greco (1896), Olympic Freestyle (1904), Greco World Championships (1904), NCAA Wrestling Championships (1928), and Freestyle World Championships (1951) are the oldest. As they are pushing 50 years and into a third generation of wrestlers I can see the argument for including the University World Championships (1968), Junior World Championships (1971), and Cadet World Championships (1975). Not sure what to do with World Cups; USA Wrestling - NUWAY age level national championships, Sr/Jr/So/Fr Nationals but can see the argument as they are national/international events. I do have a hard time quantifying or comparing state championships and placements as not all states are equal. Found this searchable database when looking for history of University/Junior/Cadet World Championships. https://unitedworldwrestling.org/database
  2. KSchlosser


    Russ has 13 points, 1971 World Bronze, 1976 Olympic Silver, 1979 World Silver Tervel Dlagnev is another guy that got me thinking as a two Olympic cycle guy - Using the current criteria he has eight points and gets credit for two out of eight years in a cycle. Using an Adjusted Career Wrestling Ranking (ACWR) to include World and Olympic Team points he has 14 points across two cycles and gets credit for six of the eight years. I think Dlagnev and Hellickson each lost a year to injury so I mention not to ask for points, but to put their competitive career in context. 2009' 3rd (4pts/4pts) 2010 Les Sigman 9th 2011 5th (0pts/1pt) 2012 5th (0pts/2pts) 2013' 5th (0pts/1pts) 2014 3rd (4pts/4pts) 2015 Zach Rey DNP 2016 5th (0pts/2pts) Considering Tervel went through two cycles, made four World teams and two Olympic teams. He placed four times at Worlds and medalled twice as well as making two teams and placing at both of his Olympics, I think he deserves the bump. He kind of comes up on the short stick because of the change in NCAA rules that didn't give him the benefit of any college points because he doesn't get to wrestle at the Division I National championships. Kind of like the 1980 guys not getting any credit for making the Olympic team. With Tervel's DII titles he would have earned the DI invites 20 years earlier and he would have placed high as a junior and senior. Had Dlagnev gotten a couple of points in college, his ACWR score would have doubled from 8 to 16 and I think it would have been a more accurate ranking of his accomplishments and his place in US wrestling history over his career. I recognize that there are other wrestlers who would gain points by revising the criterias, but he moves up 15-30 spots in your rankings. It think think ACWR gives credit for longevity and accomplishment just as your bump for World or Olympic Gold. I know it is a matter of opinion, but who had the bigger impact, the one cycle guy that had one DNP at Worlds and an Olympic Gold or a guy that was top 5 in the World for a decade who always placed and brought back a couple of medals. For one year I take Gold, for a career I am going with the guy who stuck with it and kept at least six other heavyweights from making the US team FT - I love the work you have done on these rankings. I like the idea of what you created and am just trying to add to it to make it more comprehensive. I am thinking about looking at these rankings twenty years from now, not just this year. There is some work to go back and crunch the numbers, but when it is done it is a matter of updating it year to year like you just did.
  3. KSchlosser


    Russ Hellickson should be on this list. Three time World Team member, two time Olympian. Won world bronze in 1971, world silver in 1979, placed fourth at the 1975 World Championships, and Olympic Silver in 1976 so he has 13 points. I am betting he was overlooked when the list was compiled but he was someone I thought about before posting. Russ is one of the guys that gets caught up in the numbers and loses out to some of the single cycle guys when it comes to his three cycle impact. In cycle one, Russ won Bronze a year after graduating colle. In 1972 and 1973 Ben Peterson won Olympic Gold and World Bronze at his weight. During his second cycle in 1974 Russ won Tbilsi; in 1975 he moved up to 220 and finished fourth at Worlds; and he won Olympic Silver in Montreal. During his third cycle he won World Silver in 1979 and made his last Olympic team and never saw the mat. Katie brought up a good point about the boycotts in 1980 and 1984. Wrestlers who competed in 84 got the benefit in these rankings while those who were forced to sit in 1980 were penalized. With that in consideration I would give everyone that made the 1980 US Olympic Teams three points to balance out the inflation of placement of the 1984 US Teams. Here are two great resources when researching all-time rankings: https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Team-USA/Olympic-Team-History https://www.teamusa.org/usa-wrestling/team-usa/world-team-history
  4. KSchlosser


    While I don't think it is going to make a lot of movement in your rankings, Senior level wrestlers making a world or Olympic team should earn some points if the goal is to have the best rankings you can quantitatively produce. Since you are giving credit for NCAA performances; a half point for an All-American, one for making a NCAA final, and two for winning a title; I would assert World Teams should be a point and Olympic teams two because each are an equal accomplishment to their college performance. I suggest not to criticize but to compliment. I recognize the time it took to do this and when compiling it that not all eras are equal; weights have been added, lost, and changed; tournaments, countries, qualifiers didn't always exist as they do now; rules have changed; formats have evolved; and qualification processes have varied. With that said, World and Olympic teams are consistent and wouldn't take forever to research to round out what you have done. Someone with a lot of time could dig deep and add age level world results, US Opens, Pan Am medalists, major tournament results, whatever but not sure how much better the final rankings would be.
  5. http://fivepointmove.com/usa-greco/hall-tackling-coaching-role-ohio-rtc/ While I still miss Lou Rosselli in Columbus, I have no complaints about Tervel Dlagnev. I am very excited to see Dennis Hall coaching with the Ohio RTC. Reading the article I am excited for the guys that want to train Greco while at Ohio State/Ohio RTC, USA Greco, and the younger kids in Ohio that want to train greco. At the same time I am eager to see what his impact does for the freestyle and collegiate wrestlers as they integrate some of his training and technique into what they do. I think the addition of Hall to the staff adds to the potential and production of all levels, styles, and athletes at Ohio State, in Columbus, and across Ohio. With Ohio State competing with the best in college, the Ohio RTC complimenting folk with freestyle and greco while in school and after, the only thing left is to add/address the women. If the school is not ready to make the commitment, there is nothing stopping the RTC from taking care of ALL of our Olympic wrestlers. Props to the HWC for what they are doing in Iowa in this regard.
  6. KSchlosser

    Adam Coon in the finals!!!!

    have no fear, his time is near https://i.ytimg.com/vi/k-pqU_1Ipp4/maxresdefault.jpg
  7. KSchlosser

    The Perfect Wrestler

    How about drive, motivation, mental toughness, resiliance, intelligence, or what is going on inside ones head. I guess I am talking about the intangibles, the things that can't be measured, quantified, or pointed a finger at. I always told my wrestlers that those are things that are all plus one; they take you for average to better, better to good, good to great, and great to transcendent. When two wrestlers are equal what makes the difference, when someone is a step below or a step behind what makes the difference. While Snyder is a perfect example of someone who values these traits, there are many others who value them as well. Reading this article had me thinking a lot about Dave Schultz and some of the traits Snyder has in common with him. With no disrespect intended to Lou, Tom, Tervel, JD, Brandon, Bill or anyone that has worked extensively with him, Dave may have been the been the perfect coach for the perfect wrestler.
  8. KSchlosser

    The Perfect Wrestler

    https://deadspin.com/the-perfect-wrestler-1829465630 https://victoryjournal.com/stories/freestyle/ Thought this was a pretty good article and was surprised to see it on Deadspin. More coverage the better
  9. If you think an overseas tournament for an individual wrestler may be a lot to manage in terms of academics, try being a baseball or softball player or a team from a northern school traveling with a roster of 16-20, coaches, trainers, managers, and admin. Most of those schools will spend the first month of their season a thousand or more miles away from campus. Now there are times a team will return home during their trip, but with that said most also forfeit their spring breaks as they are in season.
  10. KSchlosser

    Off Topic: opening day for college football

    JB - welcome to the list, big game this weekend. http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/page/bottom091118/bottom-10-pays-tribute-burt-reynolds
  11. KSchlosser

    Best of 2000’s teams

    I really struggled with what to do with Ohio State 133-157. Sitting Palmer, a 4x aa, was tough but I went with a 2x NC in jaggers. Want to say Jaggers lost 1-0 to Schlatter at the Scuffle at 149. J didn't wrestle at NCAA because he blew his elbow up at Big Tens. At 133 I wanted Humphrey because of his big move potential and that pushed Logan up to 141. Jaggers was clutch once he acclimated to 141 so i am taking the extra 8 and putting him at 149 and expect him to be ready in January. If the dual was in November or December, Palmer is in. Couldn't bump Lance up to 157 as he never wrestled there and Anderson was tough as nails his senior year as MSU stated. (believe he tore his knee up at NCAA) As madcat said, Palmer beat Molinaro at least twice head to head and Jaggers decked Molinaro in the OSU-PSU dual. As long as Keaton was healthy there is no way I put Jordan above Anderson at 157 and I dont think Nolf is teching Anderson. If you think Nolf and Ruth score bonus, I'd counter with Hump and snyder as bonus potential as well and remember Jaggers pinning Molinaro.
  12. KSchlosser

    Best of 2000’s teams

    I'll take a stab at Ohio State 125 Nate Thomasello - Nico Triggas 133 Reece Humphrey - Robert Sessley - Nate Thomasello 141 Logan Stieber - J Jaggers - Robert Sessley - Hunter Stieber 149 J Jaggers - Lance Palmer - Micah Jordan - Jeff Ratliff - Cam Tesari 157 Keaton Anderson - Micah Jordan - Colt Sponseller 165 Bo Jordan - John Clark - Colt Sponseller 174 Myles Martin - Bo Jordan - Nick Heflin 184 Mike Pucillo - Myles Martin - Blake Kaplan - Kenny Courts 197 Kyle Snyder - Nick Preston - JD Bergman - Nick Heflin - Kollin Moore 285 Tommy Rowlands - Kyle Snyder - JD Bergman - Kirk Nail don't think I missed any All Americans, everyone qualified for NCAA at the weights I had them. While they might not win every dual, I think an Ohio State alum team would match up with any other.
  13. KSchlosser

    Modern Era of Wrestling

    I like the reasoning behind this. If I have something to add that hasn't been mentioned or considerred if something tied to title IX and the reduction of teams or the number of scholarships could be used as a criteria. In baseball the definition of eras has a lot of criteria depending on the discussions being had or comparisons made so perhaps so should wrestling. In baseball consider dead balls, number of teams, integration, number of games, divisional alignments, playoff changes, DH, mound height, juiced balls, juiced players, shifts, roster sizes, launch angle, roster composition, bullpen evolution, ball park construction and design, train vs air travel, and probably a dozen things that aren't on the tip of my toungue. In international wrestling you have the constant of the Olympics, but the rules have evolved, countries have came and gone, weight classes have decreased, women emerged, AAU gave way to USA, scoring changes, the WTT became Final X, the mark system, shot clocks, ball grabs, and ten more criteria I am not thinking of. In college wrestling you have weight classes changing, number of teams increasing and decreasing, 3-4-5-6 years of potential eligibility, all division vs single division national championships, scholarship/roster sizes, postseason qualification process, evolving conference affiliations, win criteria and and match scoring, evolution of technique, numbers of coaches, television coverage and conference networks, definitions of amateurism, HWC, growth and development of the RTC programs, the athletic department arms race, the kessel affect, a lot of the stuff already discussed here, and certainly some that has not. Using JB's logic, I would assert that if 1928 to 1968 were the classical era, perhaps the modern era evolved or ran from the late 60's or early 70's to the millenium give or take, and that we are now in the midst of the post modern era of wrestling considering all of the changes that occurred over the last 90 years to our sport.
  14. KSchlosser

    Baba Booey

  15. KSchlosser

    Why are colleges still wearing the singlet?

    Personally i would like to see coaches start wearing singlets at practice and in the corner. If baseball managers have to dress so should wrestling coaches.