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Everything posted by PA-Fan

  1. Looked like his entire strategy was to not get blown out. I also don't understand why, you can't win that way...and the result was getting "only" majored. That is the only explanation that makes sense to me.
  2. What the hell happened to Storley...who saw that coming!
  3. Hahaha. 174 is a great weight class to watch this year. When everyone is wrestling at their top level it is totally up for grabs!
  4. Talk all you want about others expectations and trajectories - but he didn't underperform according to the criterias provided for seeding this weekend, did he? I believe I already addressed that the first time you brought it up, did I not? I am not talking about him out-placing his 5 seed in the conference tournament. If you want to start a thread praising him for doing so, go for it. That is not, however, what I am asking about here. So stop going in circles.
  5. Im starting a discussion, on a discussion board, about the possible reason that he is under-performing given his expected trajectory after his freshman year showing. I am a huge Alton fan, and am in no way saying he is done. And once again, if you don't want to participate in this particular discussion (on the discussion board), please feel free to sit it out.
  6. Were not talking about wrestling to seeds in the B10s. He did wrestle above his 5 seed, sure. But the point is that he was wrestling below his expectations all season and the level he should probably be at to get the 5 seed in the first place. If you don't want to discuss this topic until he wrestles his last match in college, you are more than welcome to not comment.
  7. You can't beat an NCAA champ, Junior world medalist, and OTT finalist if you don't score. And turning him is out of the question unless you take him down. Sooo eventually you have to shoot !! :D
  8. Maybe the 149 lbers are too big for him. I would have bet after his freshman season he would certainly be an NCAA finalist/champion at some point...now it seems so far away.
  9. Counteroffense? I don't know why the site is quoting what wrestlingnerd said as what I said....but I'd agree. Calling it counter-offense makes perfect sense, because that is what it is - offense. Calling the cradle itself a defensive move, not so much. Either way, Ill say again, Taylor needs to make no big changes to be Dake. It is as much of a toss up match as it can be. He just needs to keep doing what he has been doing...and eventually he will get him! (Hopefully its in a few weeks though, no more folkstyle chances after that! :D )
  10. Jaggers was great at hitting the cradle from different positions. In the intro to his his '09 finals match, Tim Johnson said: "...[H]e throws it from everywhere. He throws it offensively...He can do it defensively too, when everybody thinks he’s getting into a problem." At about 1:50 of the video, there's a sequence similar to the action in the Jenkins-Taylor match, with Jaggers hitting the cradle as a counter and getting back points. Later, at about 5:12, Johnson and Blatnick have a short discussion about Jagger's ability to hit the cradle from a defensive position. One of their points was that Jaggers was the type of wrestler who'd let an opponent in on the leg in order to create the opportunity for a cradle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AL0h169WaDc However .... PA_FAN will still argue it's not a defensive "tool" , "move" etc ... Nice find Hurricane. I did that a bunch of times in practice and in matches. A guy takes a shot, his base becomes compromised, and you hit a cradle to defend the shot ... It can be used "off of a" (to quote wrestlingnerd) shot defense, sure. But that does not make it a defensive move...in the same way that a re-shot "off of a" shot defense is not a defensive move - it is offense in response to your opponents offense - or off of your own defense if you prefer. That is why much much earlier in this thread I pointed out a simple idea: "defending" is not the same as "countering". Defending is being strictly defensive to avoid being scored on - countering is being offensive in reaction to your opponents offense...I don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. More importantly however, the core of my argument was focused on the Taylor v Bubba situation specifically. Bubba's cradle was in no way, shape, or form defensive. Read my last post, and watch the sequence for yourself...he defended the shot, squared his hips, [at this point he is no longer defending], locked the cradle and rolled through for the fall.
  11. Im hoping that this was mainly in jest. If not, maybe you should watch the sequence again. I said it earlier, the way you are framing it makes it seem as if Taylor shot in, Bubba scooted around the corner, and then threw a cradle and immediately rolled through - all in a fluid type of motion. This is far from the case of what actually happened. Let me break down the sequence for you by the second: 2nd Period. At 1:25 on the clock Taylor shoots the hi-c. Bubba defends and works to square his hips until about 1:14. At 1:12 he locks his cradle. At about 1:03 he rolls it over his back. And at :47 he gets the fall. When Bubba squared his hips and locks the cradle, he is no longer defending, period. The cradle is offensive all the way. It was not in defense to Taylor's hi-c, the scooting/squaring his hips was in defense to the shot, once he was squared he went to work on offense...with his cradle. Also I'd like to point something else out: Again, 100% wrong. At no point were Taylor's arms "almost completely straight" the way you are trying to describe - which led to the cradle. Bubba scotting and creating an angle led to him being able to lock the cradle - not Taylor's arms being straight out and him dropping his hips. Please, watch the video from 1:25 - 1:12. This isn't semantics...this is...what was the phrase you used? Oh yea..."EMPIRICAL evidence"
  12. Yea...I derailed things by disagreeing with a statement you made...and then disagreeing with a subsequent statement you made...right. Call it semantics all you want - but you made a certain statement that I thought was inaccurate, that is what discussion boards are for, to discuss. Anyway, I did give me thoughts on Taylor's plan: Ill restate it for you: I think he just needs to do what he does, period. He is one of the best wrestlers in the NCAA - he knows how to win - he was a millimeter away from that win in their previous two meetings. Nothing major has to be changed from Taylor's perspective...just find a way to score last!! Taylor is not in need of major adjustments to beat Dake - he lost by razor thin margins it is not as if he has a 4-5 pt gap to close. His approach has been fine, even though it seems to generally fit Dake's style more so than his own. If he wrestles the same exact was as before, he will again be only a single td away from a win - that is all it will take.
  13. Ok let me take this one at a time. Wrestlingnerd: I find it funny that it took you about 4-5 comment to suddenly state that you meant Bubba scored "OFF OF A" defensive move. You took all that time to argue how the cradle itself was defensive, then you decided to latch onto those 3 little words and change your entire argument. Bottom line is a cradle is not a defensive move, it is an offensive pinning combination. He defended Taylor's shot attempt, then went to work on his own offense. So scoring OFF OF a defensive move or not...a cradle is an offensive scoring move, period. Wire: I certainly did wrestle. Other than that, take a look again at the description of the hypothetical situation you described, and explain how the cradle you are describing is anything but offensive. Northern_Fan: You are the worst person I have encountered on these forums, and I have had many encounters with Marty. Let me remind that you are the guy who created an entire thread calling me out on my prediction on the DT v Dake Folkstyle match...in which you stated: "You are a little cry baby man you were not close at all...Bragging that Taylor would really get KD You and your magic boy loose admit it and let it go..You have been throwing it in our faces that DT will get him in folk, DT wants to win a gold in 2016 is what he said in the interview. Thats not going to happen if he can't beat Dake or Howe and Freestyle matters more than folk cause that is his ultimate goal. Back to my point your and Flying Tiger were way off on this and now its time you eat crap " My response was simply that I invite you to quote me saying any of the things you accused me of saying - you didnt - because you couldn't - because I never said any of those things. Ill leave my response to you specifically at that, because you just seemingly refuse to accept reality. Finally, to address the notion of me "drinking Taylor's bath water"...I find that the most amusing of all. My argument in this thread was centered on rejecting ideas like "Taylor was out of position, so he got stuck" and "Bubba stuck him on a defensive move". My stance was that Bubba hit a beautiful move, and that he deserves all of the credit that statements like those quoted take away from. SO LETS SUM UP - A cradle is not a defensive move...if you disagree you are simply wrong. - Wrestlingnerd: If you decide to subtly change your position from "a cradle is [can be] a defensive move" to "oh, I meant he hit it 'off of a' defensive move all along" - that is clever...but not that clever.
  14. A cradle is not a defensive move, no matter who calls it that. That is called an appeal to authority, and it is a logical fallacy. Here is an example to illustrate: "Tom Brands said that this wasn't a td - and the ref said it was. Brands is a more accomplished and better wrestler than the ref was, so brands is correct." - No. No matter what the credentials someone has, they can still be wrong. Side note: I also question weather or not Jaggers actually said anything like "A cradle is a defensive move"...I suspect is was more likely something like "Here is how you can hit a cradle while countering/defending". But not having seen it, I digress. Because whether he phrased it that way or not...it still doesn't matter.
  15. No need to apologize for being wrong! :D Seriously...all I can say is refer back to my specific objections to what he said. If you say Taylor's style is such that he is sometimes out of position, and Bubba capitalized and made him pay. - OK. Although I do object to you saying he was in "poor position"...he was in the same position anyone is in when they don't finish a shot right away/cleanly. Anyway, I can accept what you said because it is not the same as saying Taylor is always out of position because he attacks too much and Bubba hit a defensive move to pin him - No (for all the reasons I have already run through)
  16. So Im glad to know that cradles from neutral are now defensive moves, because you are countering. You do know that counter and defense do not mean the same thing, right? By your nonsensical logic, the only offensive move (aka non-defensive/counter) that exists in wrestling is the very first move after any whistle. So, if you do not score on your very first shot, or do not shoot first, you score/pin/etc off of all defensive moves. Happy you cleared that up for everyone. Also one more note, when you say "Bubba Jenkins stuck Taylor off of a counter to a hi crotch." you make it sound as if he rolled through (or something of the like) and came out on top and stuck him...which was not the case. You calling Jenkins cradle a "counter" in absurd - it was a full 11 seconds from when he locked it up until he rolled through and got his first wave for back points (maybe you should watch it again). This was an offensive move - it was set up and executed, period. As for the rest of your response, I think maybe you are the one who needs to read carefully...I clearly stated in my very first response that I stopped reading right at your Bubba Jenkins comment....and I concluded by saying continue with your opinions. I was not addressing, at all, what you think about Taylor opening up against elite opponents or whatever else you feel like talking about...that is not the same as not reading carefully.
  17. A cradle is now a defensive move when hit from a neutral position? I wasn't aware Taylor lost his freshman year due to a defensive fall. Interesting way to look at things :lol: My point was that you made it sound like Taylor opening up and throwing his entire offensive arsenal at someone often gets him in trouble (since he gets out of position/loses his position). Two reasons that is absurd. 1) He has 3 losses (one unofficial) in his entire career in the NCAA...two of which are to one of the best to ever step on the mat...so he is immensely successful with his attacking/wide open style. 2) In reference to your Jenkins remark again - you are simultaneously putting ridiculous/inaccurate criticism on Taylor and taking huge credit away from Jenkins (for the beautiful move he hit) with what you said. Bottom line - Taylor did not pay for getting out of position (he wasn't out of position at all in fact), Jenkins just hit one of the most memorable cradles in NCAA finals history.
  18. I stopped reading right there. Taylor did not "pay dearly" for taking huge risks and/or losing or being out of position against Bubba...Bubba just hit a beautiful roll through cradle, period. Taylor wasn't out of position, or too open, or whatever it is you were trying to say here. Other than that..continue with your opinions...
  19. No reason not to open up. The time for "feeling each other out" is over. If (aka when) they meet in the NCAA Finals, there is no future past that match. For Dake, it is his last match in college. For Taylor, it is his last shot at Dake. He doesn't need to be concerned with holding things back - he has nothing to lose. Think about it, he is already the underdog, he already lost twice to Dake, he has nothing to fear. I think he just needs to do what he does, period. He is one of the best wrestlers in the NCAA - he knows how to win - he was a millimeter away from that win in their previous meetings. Nothing major has to be changed from Taylor's perspective...just find a way to score last!! :)
  20. Trust you? What authority or inside info do you have that nobody else does? I am as big a Mega fan as there is...and I firmly believe he will have at least 1 title before he is done and will have a better career than Molinaro in the end...but as it stand right now - no he is not better. I didn't argue anything except you including 3 wrestlers who do not have a title to their credit being better and/or more accomplished than Molinaro. You can't do that. If you do, you are simply wrong...period.
  21. You could anyone who underperformed peaked in HS. Anyways, what is it, did they peak in HS or did Molinaro not have enough time to develop them? And if it takes an assistant coach to develop these guys, what does it say about the head coach? Both Mason and Winston have looked great at times. Winston was a great wrestler as a true freshman. He beat Welch and other good guys and I thought he was going to be an AA. Has he gotten any better since then? He problems are still riding people, getting out on bottom and conditioning. Mason has a win over Molinaro, one of the best college wrestlers of the last 10 years. No one can say that this is what they expected when this class was announced. Compare that to the old Virginia Tech class that Brands got (Metcalf, Morningstar, Slaton) Molinaro one of the best of the last 10 years? Come on now. I like Frank a lot, but I can name at least 7 guys in college right now better than him. Going back 10 years he would struggle to be in the top 20. If that is what you meant, then I agree, he is one of the best. McDonough, Megaludis, Steiber, Ramos, Oliver, St. John, Dake, Taylor, Ruth, Bosak, Wright, Kilgore, Nelson all have at least equal credentials as Molinaro if not better already. Also, Morningstar was not part of the VT Five. Molinaro is a 4 time AA, a 2 time finalist, and a 1 time Champion. They are some pretty hefty acomplishments. Is he one of the best of the last 10 years? That depends on you criteria of "one of the best". That being said, I wanted to respond to point out that you can not throw names around like Megaludis and St John and say they all have "at least equal credentials". No they don't. They do not yet have a title. Are they on a trajectory to have a better career? Yes. But until they win that title, they simple are not more accomplished than Frank, period. Even worse, Ramos? No. Im sorry, I like the way Ramos wrestles, a lot. But to throw his name around saying he is more accomplished in the NCAA, or better than Molinaro is just silly. Not only does he not have a title yet like St. John and Megaludis dont and Frank does...but his trajectory isn't vastly more impressive than Molinaro's. Again I want to make it clear, granted these 3 guys could end up with better NCAA careers than Frank had...but until they win a title you just can not throw their names around as being better than him, period.
  22. All that granted...I think you have to argue to get your guy the higher seed over the guy he has beaten head to head (although there are solid arguments against it as well) and avoid the defending National Champ in the semis, no??
  23. Stop. You are both off. McD not placing at 133? No. But to say hed be in the final and likely win it? Also no. If he were at 133 he would certainly be as much of a lock as anyone to AA. But getting to the finals would be slightly tougher...and beating Steiber? No.
  24. Are you serious? This year he has beaten Hamlin (a formar finalist) as well as Bosak (the returning Champion)...that isn't "quality" enough for you?? Again, Taylor can beat Dake and he should still not get it. I don't know how this is not clear to people. The first criteria is Record - he has a loss - unless something crazy happens multiple wrestlers will finish without one and be more dominant than Taylor was - he can not win the Hodge unless something crazy happens.
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