Jump to content

PA-Fan

Members
  • Content Count

    699
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by PA-Fan

  1. You obviously dont understand the distinction between an opinion, and an assertion based on evidence. Let me illustrate: I believe the sky is red. That is an opinion...I can believe it as strongly as I please...and nobody has the right to challenge me on that, it is a belief. The moment I start to assert that the sky actually is red (not blue), then people have the right to challenge me, and I am being totally unreasonable...being that the evidence overwhelmingly supports a blue sky. In case the analogy wasnt clear enough: "I believe the sky is red" = I believe Caldwell can beat Taylor. "The sky is red, this is the truth!" = Caldwell should be favored over / ranked above Taylor. Ill refer you to this one more time... It is a very simple distinction to be made in my eyes: - Say you think Caldwell can beat Taylor - fine. - Say you think Caldwell's track record and folkstyle ability shows he should be considered above Taylor - complete and utter nonsense.
  2. This is an interesting question, because the answer is drastically different based on what we know now versus if you took a poll in September 2010, just before Burroughs senior season. We might be able to go back and find some threads from back then, but many people, including myself, favored Howe in a matchup against Burroughs. Everyone knew Burroughs was good, but not many people really knew just how good yet. I thought Howe would be too strong to blast through. Their Midlands match proved me wrong, and Burroughs went on to become World Champ that very same year. Unbelievable. So no, Caldwell right now is nowhere near as good as Burroughs was then. But he is probably not far behind the level that Burroughs was perceived as being in September 2010, before we really saw him after he recovered from the knee injury. At that point it wasn't even clear if his knee was 100 percent. I wouldn't favor Caldwell over Dake or Taylor, but I'm not really sure what to expect of him yet until I see some matches. He's very good, and has been wrestling freestyle against some very good competition for the last year. Dake does have a freestyle win over him though, but it was a pretty boring match if I remember correctly. And Caldwell is probably big enough to be a 174 if he wanted, so he may have a strength advantage over Taylor and Dake. I wouldn't be shocked to see him beat either of those two guys, although I think as far as matchups go, Dake's tie up skills probably match up better than Taylor's. Right now if they are all at the same weight I would rank them Dake, Taylor, Caldwell, but this could all change very early in the season once we see some matches. It is funny that I am being called out for being biased, etc. And this is the only point I was making the entire time!
  3. I guess you either missed or chose to ignore when I said this "I am not saying he can't, I am not saying he couldn't, I am not saying he wont, and I am not saying he hasn't improved (I am in fact sure he has)...what I am saying is that he simply can not be considered equal or as a toss-up going into this season with Dake and/or Taylor. He just can't. He is #3 if they are all in the same weight, and that is where he should be." You can think whatever you want, that is called and opinion and everyone is entitled to it, and it is valid. What you cannot do however, is try to say that Caldwell should be favored over Taylor, or ranked above Taylor, or any other way you want to phrase it...in a folkstyle season...when the vast majority of the evidence clearly suggests otherwise. It is a very simple distinction to be made in my eyes: - Say you think Caldwell can beat Taylor - fine. - Say you think Caldwell's track record and folkstyle ability shows he should be considered above Taylor - complete and utter nonsense.
  4. Wow. Check out my post above when you want to trot out all those names from Caldwell's loss column. If you are going with the Taylor was sheltered / didn't face tough competition, etc. argument...that falls apart in a second when you match Taylor up last season (at 165) against any of those names on that list above (with the exception of *Burroughs). None of them has a legit chance against Taylor, he beats them all, again with the exception of Burroughs. Be serious. It's funny how you had no respone to back up this claim you made earlier " taylor hasnt done anything to show that he is anywhere near howes level" That is one of the most off the wall posts I have ever seen. Edit: I will back track a bit, and adjust saying that none on the list have a chance to beat Taylor...there are some that would have a chance. None would be favored though...
  5. To be fair, and show Im not biased against Caldwell...It should look more like this: 1. Dake 2. Taylor *Although I think Taylor will win out eventually, I can't argue Dake being favored at this point. 3 for 3 champ and a freestyle win and all. 3. Caldwell. 4. Asper 5. Yates The gaps are put in purposely. Caldwell seems to be above Asper/Yates and should be a clear #3.
  6. I don't discount that. But I feel it is totally irrelevant to the conversation we are having. I find it hard to believe that people would not pick Taylor at 165 last season over guys like Alex Meade, Dan Valimont, Nick Amuchastagi, even John Reader...at 165 3 years ago. These are the guys I remember Caldwell losing to. Granted, they are studs and that is a tough lineup to face, especially as a true freshman...but we are discussing Taylor now and Caldwell now...so talking about 3 years ago doesnt seem like it makes much sense to me.
  7. You are the one who jumped into this debate, I didnt pull you into it or call you out. It was started by BRGuy saying "i think taylor hasnt done anything to show that he is anywhere near howes level and dake is only slightly better. caldwell beat howe and we can all talk about being injured or whatever excuse but the reality is that caldwell was one of the best that year and he looked mighty good in iowa city too." This clearly suggests that Taylor has done nothing to be considered on the level of Howe (or anywhere near it) and Caldwell, by beating Howe, is and should be considered on Howe's level. Simple logic says that this, in BRGuy's opinion, puts Caldwell as not only on the level of Taylor and Dake, but above Taylor. This, in one word, is just laughable. That is the point I was addressing when you jumped in. As for me being biased...also laughable. Wrestler A has a career record of 70-1 in two seasons, 1 NCAA Title, 1 2nd place, and a hodge trophy. Wrestler B has a career record of 64-20, with a 2nd place and a 5th place finish at the NCAAs. Please explain how me stating that wrestler B can not and should not be considered on the level of wrestler A in folkstyle is biased... I am the one going by the facts and evidence. I don't ignore the fact that Caldwell looked better at the Trials, it just holds much less weight that the other evidence that we have in folkstyle...which is what we are discussing incase you forgot.
  8. Learn to embrace it dude. Because it matters. It matters because wrestling needs it. It needs to be known as an Olympic sport within an athletic department. This is a vital component for survival. Im all for that...I am a huge fan of freestyle and completely agree with this point. But that does not mean that because Caldwell "looked better" at the Trials than Taylor did...therefore he can rationally be considered a favorite or equal in the upcoming folkstyle season. Nonsense! *Especially when you consider their NCAA accomplishments side by side.
  9. +1 Except I am not even worried so much about who his biggest win is, beating Howe is big even if less that 100%. My point was simple...he has not shown enough in folkstyle to be considered equal to Dake and Taylor going into this season.
  10. 1. I don't know what discussion you are talking about...but to be brief..talking about what would have happened, or saying that someone loses some credibility because of a RS is just stupid. And would Caldwell and Taylor not be even now in that dept anyway...Taylor took his RS 3 years ago...Caldwell took his last season...now they are all evened up - so let this stupid argument go. 2. I love how people continually bring up Olympic trials when we are discussing the upcoming NCAA season. Yes, freestyle is all that matters when you talk about World level. We are not talking about the World level. If you want to say that Caldwell is favored over Taylor right now for the 2016 Olympic cycle, great I wont even argue. If you want to say he is favored over Taylor right now to win an NCAA title or in a head to head folkstyle match, you are wrong...and you certainly can not use freestyle results to support your argument.
  11. I guess that is the difference here. I would be surprised if it happens. It is extremely hard to beat NCAA champion caliber guys with a lacking (or lazy) offense, so Caldwell would have to improve his offense dramatically since his last season in the NCAA to pick off Dake or Taylor. I am not saying he can't, I am not saying he couldn't, I am not saying he wont, and I am not saying he hasn't improved (I am in fact sure he has)...what I am saying is that he simply can not be considered equal or as a toss-up going into this season with Dake and/or Taylor. He just can't. He is #3 if they are all in the same weight, and that is where he should be.
  12. You're doubt would be incorrect. Yes I saw the matches...2 of 3 anyway. The latest one, NCAA finals, in person. As for the 2-1 match, Caldwell did not have much to gain by going all out against Burroughs then. He benefited from being conservative and keeping it close. NCAA Finals were a different story...being defensive and focusing only on stopping Burroughs offense wasn't going to be enough, to win he had to open up, and he had nothing left to lose (being it was the finals)...and when he did open up and try to go after it, he was picked apart. The 2-1 result means nothing in my opinion. It especially does not indicate that they are as close as that score would suggest. If Caldwell wrestled Burroughs 10 times, I honestly believe Burroughs wins all 10. Gonzo, we obviously have a different opinion. Like I said Caldwell just has not shown me anything in folkstyle (including keeping it close with Burroughs once, and beating an injured Howe by 1 pt in one of the most boring semi final matches ever) to make me believe he is on the Taylor/Dake level thats funny since i think taylor hasnt done anything to show that he is anywhere near howes level and dake is only slightly better. caldwell beat howe and we can all talk about being injured or whatever excuse but the reality is that caldwell was one of the best that year and he looked mighty good in iowa city too. Going 70-1 with 1 Title, a Hodge, and a runner up finish in his first two seasons isn't enough for you to put him in the ranks of Howe and Dake? But Caldwell, who has never won his conference tournament, and has 20 times (literally) more losses than Taylor, he qualifies in your opinion?? Wow. Talk about being blatantly biased.
  13. You're doubt would be incorrect. Yes I saw the matches...2 of 3 anyway. The latest one, NCAA finals, in person. As for the 2-1 match, Caldwell did not have much to gain by going all out against Burroughs then. He benefited from being conservative and keeping it close. NCAA Finals were a different story...being defensive and focusing only on stopping Burroughs offense wasn't going to be enough, to win he had to open up, and he had nothing left to lose (being it was the finals)...and when he did open up and try to go after it, he was picked apart. The 2-1 result means nothing in my opinion. It especially does not indicate that they are as close as that score would suggest. If Caldwell wrestled Burroughs 10 times, I honestly believe Burroughs wins all 10. Gonzo, we obviously have a different opinion. Like I said Caldwell just has not shown me anything in folkstyle (including keeping it close with Burroughs once, and beating an injured Howe by 1 pt in one of the most boring semi final matches ever) to make me believe he is on the Taylor/Dake level
  14. You would really say Caldwell is not all that much behind Burroughs senior year peak? I have to totally disagree with that. Granted im sure Caldwell is improved since the NCAA finals in Philly...but that gap Burroughs showed between him and Caldwell would take a lot of improvement to close to "not all that much" behind... I think Caldwell is great. But Taylor or Dake he aint. I could be wrong ofcourse..that is why they are called opinions. Caldwell has just not really shown me anything in folkstyle to equate him to Dake and Taylor.
  15. That would be awesome. I for one can definitely buy it. He has been there, done that with destroying weight classes where he was the clear and far away favorite...why not go try to get title #4, and 4 different weight classes, and simultaneously beat a guy who is unanimously considered one of the best in college today. This, is true, would be worthy of the Topic Title of this thread!
  16. Yes, you hardly see that sort of domination at this level at all...let alone when two guys at Dake and Taylor's level wrestle...they simple do not get dominated* (in that way) and that was the point I was making. To clear up, I am not exactly saying freestyle head to head results do not matter...I am just saying that they do not matter anywhere near as much as people are suggesting they do, and there are multiple examples for this...plus the fact that the scoring and the risk/reward for shooting and scrambling is totally different. As for Taylor v Howe in folk...I would be very interested in that match up. I think it would be somewhat similar to Dake v Taylor...only Howe being a bit more to the extreme side of the Brute-Force spectrum. It is hard to say what would happen. Much Like Dake v Taylor...if Howe can control pace and tie up and keep the score low he most likely wins...if Taylor can control the pace and score points and move he most likely wins. Its a clash of styles.
  17. What the heck are you talking about? It happens all the time, including twice just last year to David Taylor. Metcalf was dominated by Caldwell in 2009. Amuchastegui was dominated by Ruth last year in the finals. Good wrestlers get dominated by better wrestlers all the time. I tried to qualify my statement to address these perceived instances...apparently I wasn't clear enough . Frank and Amuch are not on the level I was really addressing. Also, freestyle results were thrown out because 1. this is a folkstyle discussion...that should be easy to understand, and 2. that horse has been beaten to death. Metcalf being dominated the way Caldwell did was not exactly the way I was talking about. Caldwell controlled the match, no question. but he won by 4 points...It should be obvious that I wasnt speaking about that kind of "domination"
  18. I doubt it will be a manhandling either, but I would be very reluctant to make absolute statements like this, because you're setting yourself up for some major crow dining should it turn out the other way. And there was nothing freestyle specific about the way Howe manhandled him. I know Dake isn't Howe, but all I'm saying is we can't be 100 percent sure that Taylor won't get pushed around. I think it is totally fair to say what I said, and with a very high degree of confidence. Simply put, elite wrestlers at this level just do not get dominated. I had this argument a while back (I forget with who). A top level (and I mean top level as in Multiple NCAA title caliber) wrestler is much, much more likely to get pinned than to get teched or even majored. It just does not happen...I literally can not realistically see a way that Taylor gets thrown all over the mat and dominated...especially given Dake's style in Folk.
  19. I just want to reitterate how silly it was for the OP to suggest that Dake moving up from 157 to 165 is the same as a 197lber moving up to wrestle at HWT. Wow. Silly actually doesn't cover it, absurd does much better. And I totally understand hyperbole...I just don't think that is what this was. All props to all involved for making this happen, especially Dake since he is the one with the most to lose and least to gain...but leave it at that. He isnt jumping 50 lbs...he is going up 8 lbs...and that is only in theory given their projected weight classes for the season...in practice he will weight just as much as Taylor on the day...sooooo
  20. There is not much I (or anyone) can guarantee in this match. It could be 3-1 final...it could be 13-10...or any range in between. Either guy could win, and it would not be surprising to anyone. What I will guarantee however, Taylor will not be manhandled (they way he seeming was at the OTT). This is not a freestyle match, and weather you want to admit it or not that makes a distinct difference. There will be no beatdown one way or the other (excluding a quick/slick pin...say when the score is something like 1-1...for this instance I do not consider that to be manhandled) And before anyone gets all uppity, let me be clear...I am not saying that losing a close match (not getting manhandled) is some kind of a moral victory for Taylor, or his supporters. I am simply illustrating that this will not be anything like the Trials match...and that is about as certain a prediction as anyone can make here.
  21. That was 2 years ago. They won last year as well, without Long. That aside...the "they wouldn't have won, IF" argument is just silly. They did win, period. The same way that making excuses for why Taylor would have beat Dake in freestyle IF...is silly. Dont confuse this with Taylor can beat Dake...or Iowa (or OK St, Minny, etc) can beat PSU...in the future. That is a totally different, and worthwhile, discussion.
  22. How many times can you actively avoid me blatantly pointing out your hypocrisy in a single thread? Two part question: Did Taylor win Big 10s as a freshman, and why are you on the college boards? ****Look, if he WINs the Big 10s this season- Im voluntarily gone off "TheMat.com-College Board" - LIMartin 12/8/2010****
  23. When do you bash Taylor??? Never right? Ill ask you again, did he win Big 10s as a Freshman? Get off the college boards, you cowardly, welching, moron.
  24. I'd obviously be more comfortable if David Taylor made good on his proposal to go down to 157 for this. Or just keep it all fantasy fodder between two greats, wrestling at different weights. Guys who wrestle up a weight are at a major disadvantage. I think of Askren wrestling up against Kish. Kish is a great wrestler, but no match for Askren at the same weight. Not even close. Yet Askren had his hands full with Kish in a big way. Or how about Smith against Fadaev? Fadaev lost with respect, but I understand mentioned that maybe Smith should give him a crack at the lower of the two weights. Wow...if this isn't setting the ground work for an excuse if Dake loses I don't know what is!! You can say that wrestling up a weight is a disadvantage, and Taylor should win and is a favorite. OR You can say Dake is the better wrestler (Free or Folk) and will beat Taylor and is the favorite. You can not qualify one statement with the other however...that is completely contradictory and totally dishonest and cowardly.
  25. "devastating losses to both Bubba and Dake" That is taking a shot right there you moron. Im sure Taylor was devastated by the loss to Bubba, but not in the way you are suggesting...that somehow that loss destroys all the hype around him and it was not warranted. Obviously it was and still is. His career thus far speaks for itself. Did he win Big 10s as a Freshman? Get off the college boards...you are pathetic.
×
×
  • Create New...