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Posts posted by PA-Fan

  1. And if he loses to Dake, he still only has 1 loss heading into his 3rd season (after a redshirt).


    I know where you are going with this...and it is stupid.


    Is Cael Sanderson undefeated in college or not?


    Don't bring up the RS nonsense again. Dake didn't redshirt...that makes his accomplishments that much more amazing and special, without question. But that does not mean that Taylor's accomplishments are somehow lessened because he did RS. Let it go.


    Let what go? If David Taylor loses to Dake, he still only has 1 loss, heading into his third (fourth because of redshirt) season.


    You gotta think of this as a good thing. No matter what, he'll start the season with only 1 loss on his career.


    You are either being coy and subtly suggestive (of Taylor's RS vs. Dake not having one, or Taylor having RS losses, or something)...or you are just making pointless statements. I lean heavily towards the first, but either way...it's pointless to continue.

  2. And if he loses to Dake, he still only has 1 loss heading into his 3rd season (after a redshirt).


    I know where you are going with this...and it is stupid.


    Is Cael Sanderson undefeated in college or not?


    Don't bring up the RS nonsense again. Dake didn't redshirt...that makes his accomplishments that much more amazing and special, without question. But that does not mean that Taylor's accomplishments are somehow lessened because he did RS. Let it go.

  3. The more that the match is built up is a positive for Dake and a negative for Taylor. Their skills are very close, but Dake appears to rise to the occasion while Taylor seems to (I hate to say it, kind of harsh) choke.


    A kid who is 70-1 in his NCAA career with 1 Title, 1 2nd place, and a Hodge trophy...not to mention coming off one of the most dominating NCAA performances in history...seems to choke?


    That comment is nonsense. He lost a match in the finals as a freshman by getting hit with a dirty cradle...it doesn't mean he has a tendency to choke...get real.


    Back to the match at hand...it will be great. I think it comes down to who can control the pace. If Dake can neutralize Taylor's explosive scoring ability..that is how he wins. If Taylor can amp up the pace and break through Dake's impenetrable defense...that's how he wins.


    The higher the score, the more likely Taylor comes out on top. Im hoping for, and predicting, a score in the ballpark of 9-6 / 9-7 / 10-8...Taylor on top.

  4. Never thought PSU fans would join the ranks of the Iowa contingent.....My man Dake will have the ability to bury the myth- the legend- the nonsense....all in 7:00 min.....and be placed UNANIMOUSLY on his throne-


    Right. I (and I sure many other) remember just how high you were on Dake right out of the gate.


    *cough* "He will lose, that's what freshman do.." *cough*


    I still didn't get clarification...did Taylor win Big 10s 2 years ago or....


    You call Taylor's hype "nonsense" because, why? He lost to Dake in freestyle? Maybe because he lost to Bubba in the Finals as a freshman? Or is it one of his other losses?...Oh wait.


    You are the biggest joke on these boards, I don't know why people take you seriously. I truthfully don't even know why I acknowledge you presence, other than to say be a man, stick to your word and beat it...Or if you are going to back out of your promise (which you have done for years now) AT LEAST have the decency to stop bashing the kid who you said would not be able to AA untill his junior year...when he currently has a National Title, a Hodge, 70+ wins, and only 1 loss in his first 2 seasons in the NCAA.

  5. It will certainly not be the end of the debate. If Taylor loses, there will be rationalization. If Dake loses...he is early season/up a weight and not in top shape...obviously he should lose!..is all we will hear from the Big Red camp.


    Bottom line is, this is awesome for the sport and for the fans...BUT it could very well not be a great gauge of who is the better overall Folk wrestler, although it may be the only chance we will ever get...and it is much better than nothing.


    Lets not forget that guys at this high of a level can take an absolute whopping, make an adjustment, and win a rematch with no problem. It has happened before (See Matcalf v Caldwell for an extreme case), and it will happen again.


    That being said however, this may be the only chance we get to see them wrestle folk, so we take it for what it is, and I for one will be willing to say that the winner of this match should be considered the better folk wrestler.


    Lets go DT!!! (and hopefully they end up at the same weight this season and we can see them on the big stage at NCAAs...now that would be something...and no room for excuses there!)

  6. JMO- I would like to see a MIXTURE of talent- I do not need to see the TOP wrestlers from DI. I wouldnt mind seeing the #1 DII kid wrestle the #4 DI wrestler ...etc. etc.


    btw- NO, I think PSU should be represented by "1" wrestler and each Conference should get an invite-e. I LIKE VARIETY.




    Everyone wants to see Dake beat Taylor again.....this time it will make your eyes bleed from the lack of movement. Maybe, one takedown- and maybe, 2 escapes- Depends if, Dake really wants to shut the mouths of his critics.


    Is this thread somehow linked to the HS boards?

  7. I guess people could bring up PSU fans (myself included) making excuses for Ruth losing to Amuch at NCAAs in Philly. You know, how we all said Ruth only got dominated like that because he severely injured his knee and could not continue the way he would have otherwise...


    That would be a good example, except...oh wait...that IS what happened! It WAS NOT an excuse! Given the fact that he absolutely destroyed Amuch last year in the finals when not injured, it is now confirmed that the "exucse" we all made up for Ruth was legitimate (as if the surgery he had after that season wasn't proof enough of its legitimacy).


    I get where you are coming from Gonzo I really do...but to carry the "PSU fans make excuses when their guys lose" thing anywhere beyond Taylor is nonsense...

  8. Right. He controls the pace and has great offense. All of which Dake has already demonstrated the ability to render useless in a head to head bout. So what you have left is scrambling over his back. Last time he went to his back against Dake he didn't get off until the ref slapped the mat. Exposing your back more against a guy that already pinned you sounds like a fabulous idea .


    Do you just deliberately forget things that were already established? Like the fact that the way in which you are able to shoot and score in freestyle is hindered much more than in folkstyle...given that you can give up exposure points during your td attempt and actually wind up on top, with less points than you gained. If you think this doesn't mean anything, especially to a guy who moves and scores in the way Taylor does, then you again are either ignorant of the differences or are just trolling.


    And for the 100th time, stop discussing the freestyle match, we are past that. This is the college board. If you want to talk about how Dake is "far and away" the better international prospect..head over to that board. While here, discuss the NCAA and folkstyle comparisons between the two, especially when it has already been demonstrated that freestyle results and folkstyle result don't directly correlate...especially with guys at the level of Dake and Taylor (folkstyle match to match results rarely even directly correlate at that high of a level...see Caldwell v Metcalf).

  9. So what exactly would that "offense" look like against Dake? From their feet? Takedowns from neutral aren't any different in folkstyle than freestyle, Dake had 2 takedowns vs none when they met. Or are you actually claiming that Taylor is going to turn Dake a couple of times? The truth is that Dake would get a couple of takedowns (like what already happened) Taylor might get an escape or possibly even 2 and Dake would like 5-2, 6-2...something like that. Or Dake might just pin him again. I wouldn't bet on the pin, but it's certainly possible based on what we've seen not only from their head to head but also Taylor's match with Bubba. The first time you wrestle a more dominant physical wrestler and get stuck, it could be a fluke. When it happens again..there is probably something there.


    It is very clear that you either 1) did not understand my stated opinion at all, specifically when I referenced WHY/HOW I think Taylor would be more likely to score in Folk vs. Free. 2) are just a complete troll.


    Either way, Im not going to explain again what I just explained 2 posts ago.

  10. If we are going to throw in the # of career losses as a factor then I think we should count Taylor's losses as a redshirt, seeing as how Dake was winning his first NCAA title that same year. How many losses did he have during his redshirt year?


    2. But that is a sort of ridiculous argument. Cael Sanderson lost a match in his RS year. Does that mean he was not Undefeated as an NCAA athlete? There is a reason people red shirt...the fact that Dake didn't makes his accomplishments more impressive...but the fact that Taylor did does not limit his.

  11. PA-fan-Just curious. Take away the far and away part. Why would you argue Taylor is better than Dake? This is an Iowa fan asking you the question, I have no personal stake in Kyle Dake at all. I just think the evidence overwhelmingly shows he's the better wrestler right now. We have head to head evidence and resume evidence that both show Dake is better. Tell me why I should believe Taylor is better.


    First, I am strictly speaking in a head to head sense. I don't, haven't (and wouldn't) argue that Taylor is having the better career thus far, on an accomplishment level (although strictly speaking he is only 1 win away really...but that is neither here nor there). Dake is clearly more accomplished because he is 3 for 3 in terms of titles to Taylor's 1 for 2. The # of career losses tips the scale back a bit towards Taylor, but not nearly enough to overcome 3 titles in as many tries.


    That all being said and cleared up, I would bet on Taylor in a folkstyle match, say if they somehow met at the Southern Scuffle this season. Reason being, I think Taylor's style would overcome Dake's in most instances, all other things being equal. Dake is a dominant wrestler, but in a different way then Taylor. Nobody scores on him, and he controls the pace in a very calculated and methodical way. Taylor on the other hand is so offensively dynamic, he can not seemingly be stopped from scoring. I would learn towards Taylor in a format where he can scramble and roll and not worry about giving up exposure points.


    It reminds me of the old saying "Offense wins games, but defense wins championships." Kyle Dake seems to be the poster boy for that mantra in Collegiate wrestling.

  12. Finally, did you really just lump in Taylor with guys who can beat 98% of guys and not the top-tier guys? Really?


    What's funny is, despite the fact that it's being used to make some borderline ridiculous claims about Taylor, the 98 percent thing might be statistically pretty relevant. If Taylor is 70-1, that's a winning percentage of 98.6 percent. So the claim that Taylor can "only" beat 98 percent of his opponents but falls to the top 2 percent is almost accurate, although it's a meaningless statistic because only completely undefeated wrestlers can claim better.


    Hahaha. Very astute, sir.

  13. "Dake is a better wrestler than Taylor" is not an opinion in the sense of "chocolate is the best flavor of ice cream", it is an opinion like "USC is a better football team than Syracuse." You can argue for Syracuse, and it can be your "opinion" that Syracuse is better, but the facts don't support your argument.


    The only argument for Taylor is that he runs up the score big time against a lot of people. That is to his credit, he can truly dominate people in the way that few others can. But to this point, it has not held true against elite opponents. Wrestling history is littered with guy that were awesome on top and can run up the score on 98% of opponents but could never beat the top 2%.


    I am going to respond to these two chunks....


    First, USC to Syracuse is NOT Dake to Taylor. This is one of the most ridiculous things you have said yet. USC to Syracuse is more Like Dake to Taylor's back-up. USC to Alabama would be a more accurate analogy for Dake - Taylor....again just showing your glaring (and more and more obvious) bias against Taylor.


    Second, the only argument for Taylor is that he runs up the score big...really? Not the fact that he is 70-1 in his 2 year NCAA career, with his only career loss coming in the finals as a freshman? Or the fact that he had one of the most dominant seasons EVER last year? (regardless of how weak the weight was, this is still impressive) These statements you make are just silly.


    Finally, did you really just lump in Taylor with guys who can beat 98% of guys and not the top-tier guys? Really? Look at his career thus far, he has beaten everyone possible and gone out of his way to do so. He happened to be at 165 in an Olympic year when Howe was red shirting...not his fault. He will face "top 2% guys" before he is done in college, and he will beat them, because he is among them weather you believe it or not. Remember when he dismantled Fittery, who was unstoppable that year? (This is usually where people say, he was never even a finalist blah blah...but if you remember, Everyone thought he was a machine that year, and most certainly top tier.)

  14. **To be clear, it is VERY reasonable to argue that Dake is the better wrestler...but it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument...and it is simply STUPID to say that he is "far and away" better than a kid with 1 career NCAA loss in 70+ matches.



    I've been avoiding jumping into this argument, but I couldn't resist anymore. Correlation and causation are two very different concepts. I agree, freestyle results do not equal folkstyle results (this would be causation). But you are simply incorrect when you argue freestyle results do not strengthen an argument for who might win in a folkstyle match (or who is a better wrestler). There is definitely a correlation between freestyle results and folkstyle results (do not try to argue against this). This means that when one wrestler wins in a freestyle match, that wrestler will win more often than not in a folkstyle match (not because of the freestyle match, but more likely because the same things that led to the freestyle win will also lead to the folkstyle win). The freestyle match result did not cause the folkstyle match result, but a freestyle result and folkstyle result will often be the same.


    Again, this does not mean the folkstyle results will be the same. But you are the one being completely unreasonable when you say "it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle result to argue that Dake is the better wrestler" (and to give you the benefit of the doubt I think you meant folkstyle wrestler). This is not opinion -- this is logic and statistics.


    If you are going to counter my statements, please understand my position first. If you read the entire thread (which it seems you didn't) and the other areas where I discussed my opinions on this (which I wouldn't expect you to)...then you would know my position, and see how you are completely misrepresenting it here.


    "it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle result to argue that Dake is the better wrestler" This is a misquote, it is not what I said..."it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument" This is what I actually said, and it has a totally different meaning than how you understood it.


    I AM NOT saying the freestyle result is meaningless, it definitely has some meaning in regards to folkstyle and who is the better wrestler, but it has much, much less meaning that people trying to use it as a main supporting post in their "Dake is better than Taylor argument"...especially since we are comparing them in folkstyle, given that they are both still in the NCAA


    The fact of the matter is simple to understand, freestyle scoring is much different than folkstyle. You can get scored against in freestyle and an identical move in folkstyle would be no points at all. (Side not: the actual scoring of the Dake/Taylor freestyle match would have looked much different in folk...but that is not relevant right now). This doesn't even take into account the fact that the top/bottom position is almost non-existent in freestyle under the new rules.


    Im fine with opposition, and as I already made clear I am fine with people arguing that Dake is a better wrestler than Taylor...but use arguments and reasoning that is relevant...i.e Don't hitch your entire argument on ONE head to head freestyle result...it is ridiculous, and demonstrably so.


    Saying Dake is the better wrestler (and I do mean folkstyle, obviously, because this is the college board) is not an opinion? I don't even have a response to that...it is such a ridiculous statement.


    Oh and again, I feel the need to repeat this as much as possible, saying that Dake (or anyone for that matter) is far and away a better college wrestler than Taylor is still extremely stupid.

  15. Imagine how "conclusive" that match would have been if Taylor teched Dake and then pinned him.


    The truth is, when you watch that match three things are really evident, and they are not specific to style.


    1) Dake is physically superior

    2) Dake is technically superior

    3) Dake is far tougher mentally


    If anyone is foolish enough to dispute this, please watch the match first.


    Interesting that now Dake is superior in all these categories, specifically physically, when a few posts earlier you were lobbying to make Dakes win look even better because he "moved up a weight".


    It is amazing you are still stuck on this freestyle match when it is clear that is not what people are discussing, and it has been shown, multiple times, that freestyle results DO NOT equal folkstyle results (or vice verse... Molinaro vs. Chamberlin anyone?)


    Another great thing is how you flip-flop on your own opinions. For example, first saying Dake is "far and away the better wrestler" (flat out stupid statement, especially since you are basing it off of 1 single meeting, in freestyle). Then going back on it and saying he is better, but not so much to win 100/100. Now you are back to this list of 3 ways Dake is superior...


    It is clear you are totally biased against Taylor and/or PSU.


    **To be clear, it is VERY reasonable to argue that Dake is the better wrestler...but it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument...and it is simply STUPID to say that he is "far and away" better than a kid with 1 career NCAA loss in 70+ matches.

  16. Dake has 3 NCAA titles, Taylor has 1. They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.


    Taylor has had 2 shots and is 1 for 2. Dake is 3 for 3...so in that respect he is better, but Burroughs never won 3 titles...is Dake a better wrestler than him? No...you logic is flawed.


    As for the freestyle result, im not going to beat this up here because it has been in many other places, but if you think that directly correlates to folkstyle then you are simply wrong. Easy way to illustrate that point...Taylor lost to St. John in freestyle...is St John a better wrestler? No. The way the scoring and rules in freestyle are set it...it is much, much different than folk. If you don't see that you are simply wrong.


    I was just addressing your two justifications directly because I would take Taylor in a folk match (although I concede Dake would probably have to be a slight favorite). For you to say that Dake is a better wrestler is a fair position to hold, and it can be argued well. But to say he is "far and away the better wrestler" is pure nonsense. Taylor has 1 loss in his college career thus far, in the National Finals as a RS Freshman to a Senior returning finalist and former Junior World Champion. He is an undefeated NCAA Champion (as a Soph), and one of the highest scoring / fastest/ most electric wrestlers in the sport right now. NOBODY is "far and away" better than him in regards to folkstyle, absolutely nobody.


    Freestyle right now is a different story, but that is not what we are discussing here.

  17. Im really getting tired of the "2012 Dake-Taylor Hodge Controversy" comments.


    It is the farthest thing from a controversy. The Hodge is not a strongest weight class / Most titles / Head to Head match up award, it is NOT. Strength of weight is a criteria, but it is not the be all end all by any means...and Dake's weight was not 2008 149, so this argument applied here is pointless. It is for the most dominant wrestler at his weight class, period. There was no controversy last year, especially between Dake and Taylor. Dake was not more dominant given the criteria, period. Even if ALL the things being said were 100% true (ie. Dake had a tougher weight, he dominated Taylor at the trials therefore he is way better, etc, etc) it DOES NOT follow that Dake should then get the Hodge.


    Oh and by the way, my favorite part of the "controversy"... Dake wasn't even in 2nd place for the Hodge... *cough* Ruth *cough* :roll:


    Dake vs. Taylor in the "whos the better wrestler" argument, fine. But there is no Hodge controversy with these two, none. Ness-Herbert was a legitimate Hodge controversy...stick to that please, at least it makes some sort of sense.

  18. I find it pretty funny that all the guys who were so hard up about the "Dake will handle Taylor in Folk because he handled him in Free" argument in this thread, pretty much just stopped in their tracks when FT pointed out the fact that Taylor also lost to St John and Poltz in freestyle, I bet nobody would use that argument to say St John would beat Taylor...and if they did they would obviously be completely wrong because he completely handled him in folk, multiple times.


    Bottom line is, the freestyle result will mean nothing in regards to a folkstyle match up, and it is very clear and obvious if you know the rules and follow each style.


    Now, that being said, that does not mean that Dake couldn't or wouldn't beat Taylor in free (although id put my money on Taylor as a matter of opinion)...Dake would actually probably have to be a slight favorite if you were an odds maker...it just means that the basis of the argument can and should not be "because he beat him handily in freestyle...he can obviously beat him in folk".


    It is simple, that argument is demonstrably false and nonsensical, given free/folk results of other wrestlers and matchups. If you want to say that Dake can/will beat Taylor in folk, fine, you are on perfectly reasonable grounds to do so. But when you sight some reasons why you are of this opinion, stick to things like he is a 3 time National Champ, a monster on top, better technician, etc, etc, etc. Don't use the ridiculous freestyle result...because for the last time, it is nonsense...for many reasons.

  19. YOu are comparing him to guys who may have only 1 or 2 titles and will go down as all time greats, I think Dake can get there, will see, but he needs his Frazier to prove it. Either that or do something exceptional , people, don't talk about Pat Smith as being an all-time great even though he won 4 NCAA championships, is my point.



    So you think in 15 years people will think of Caldwell, Burroughs and Jenkins more highly than Pat Smith? Really?


    Not Bubba, maybe not Caldwell, but 100% Burroughs! His dominance is just unreal, and it WILL NOT be forgotten in 15 years.

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