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PA-Fan

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Everything posted by PA-Fan

  1. Now you add evaluating him "as a wrestler"...I like that little qualification you snuck in that. Except, we aren't evaluating him "as a wrestler" - we are comparing him as a collegiate wrestler to another collegiate wrestler...in folkstyle - the style of collegiate wrestling. I mean is there some sort of physical block in you brain preventing you from understanding this? Burrough's freestyle skills/accomplishments have ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE when comparing him as a college wrestler to Taylor as a college wrestler. None...none at all. You know why? Because...and this is where it gets a bit tricky... in the hypothetical world of the comparison we are making, Jordan Burroughs as a freestyle wrestler/World and Olympic Champion on the post-college Senior level does not exist. We are comparing JB to DT in college - so just imaging that It is 2010 and Taylor and Burroughs are the same age and graduating the same year and they are about to wrestle each other...the last 2 years (JB's freestyle career) have not occurred yet. It is honestly not a very hard concept to grasp...Do you see now why Burrough's freestyle accomplishments have absolutely no bearing on the discussion? Im honestly asking - are you really unable to conceptualize what it is we are discussing? It really should not have to be said, let alone 4-5 times, that POST-COLLEGE wrestling should not be considered when comparing guys WHILE THEY WERE IN COLLEGE. Not sure where your reality disconnect is occurring. Going LIM with the CAPS does not bolster your argument. What JB did immediately after college is strongly indicative of the skill he had while in college just a few months prior to that. He did not pick up those skills in three months. His immediate post collegiate career success merely augments the fact that he was undefeated his last two years and won, in dominating fashion, brackets with at least 4 NCAA champions in them. It distinguishes and separates him from his peers. One of those peers is DT. Is there anything he can do to separate himself from JB in the last two years of their college career? I used the caps to illustrate the reasons you were missing/ignoring/whatever. I literally don't know how to make it any more clear that post-collegiate wrestling should not be considered when evaluating a college career or comparing two guys while they were in college. I mean literally, there is no other way to explain it after the way I just did. "He did not pick up those skills in three months" Ok. This is nonsense. No, he did not completely pick up those skill in only three months. But you are out of your mind if you don't think focusing full time on freestyle for those months is what propelled Burroughs to his World title. Honestly...the suggestion you are making with this statement is a little out of bounds.
  2. It is not hard to understand. I understand what you are saying completely. I don't know how many ways I can show you that this argument is totally, and at this point mind-numbingly, illogical and pointless. And, once again you ignore my other way of approaching it. So, please allow me to repeat it to you for the third time now (Maybe this time you will not ignore it and actually acknowledge how I am demonstrating the ridiculousness of your argument): JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is Dake even remotely capable of that? The answer to that is a resounding no, since he is not on the world team. So, by your impeccable logic, JB was the better wrestler than Dake in college...despite Dake's 4 titles to Burroughs 2, Dake also not red shirting, having less losses, etc...correct? Your argument is nonsensical and completely logically incoherent. It falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny.
  3. Refer to my previous post to see why this nonsensical question is totally irrelevant.
  4. [quote name="NJWC Correct' date=' and by his senior year, JB was at a world championship level. The best guy on the planet at his weight. Do you think you'll say the same about DT next Spring?[/quote] Refer to above post to see why this nonsensical question is meaningless to the discussion.
  5. So, when I refute a statement you make, your counter is to just restate the exact same thing again? I can see we obviously are not going to get anywhere with this. I took out your opinion statements since they are irrelevant, and we should just focus on the facts. How about we just focus on the other approach I took, why did you just ignore that? Let me repeat it for you just incase you missed it the first time. JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is Dake even remotely capable of that? The answer to that is a resounding no, since he is not on the world team. So, by your impeccable logic, JB was the better wrestler than Dake in college...despite Dake's 4 titles to Burroughs 2, Dake also not red shirting, having less losses, etc...correct? Your argument is nonsensical and completely logically incoherent. It falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny.
  6. Now you add evaluating him "as a wrestler"...I like that little qualification you snuck in that. Except, we aren't evaluating him "as a wrestler" - we are comparing him as a collegiate wrestler to another collegiate wrestler...in folkstyle - the style of collegiate wrestling. I mean is there some sort of physical block in you brain preventing you from understanding this? Burrough's freestyle skills/accomplishments have ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE when comparing him as a college wrestler to Taylor as a college wrestler. None...none at all. You know why? Because...and this is where it gets a bit tricky... in the hypothetical world of the comparison we are making, Jordan Burroughs as a freestyle wrestler/World and Olympic Champion on the post-college Senior level does not exist. We are comparing JB to DT in college - so just imaging that It is 2010 and Taylor and Burroughs are the same age and graduating the same year and they are about to wrestle each other...the last 2 years (JB's freestyle career) have not occurred yet. It is honestly not a very hard concept to grasp...Do you see now why Burrough's freestyle accomplishments have absolutely no bearing on the discussion? Im honestly asking - are you really unable to conceptualize what it is we are discussing? It really should not have to be said, let alone 4-5 times, that POST-COLLEGE wrestling should not be considered when comparing guys WHILE THEY WERE IN COLLEGE.
  7. That is all well and good...but it is also mostly subjective opinion. The Senior JB would be Senior DT, etc, etc kind of stuff is nothing but subjective opinion. Even the "far more impressive wins/competition" (which I happen to agree with by the way) is a bit over-hyped. Yes, Burrough's beat a lot of guys who would become NCAA Champs..and yes 2008 149 was an absolutely insane weight class...but it is not as if he was beating all of these guys after they were already champs... Also, let's put this out there. If you think David Taylor is not right up with with Jordan Burroughs in college, even at his peak senior year...you are just wrong. Would he win? Who knows. Is it certain that he doesn't/couldn't? Not by a long shot. JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is DT even remotely capable of that? :roll: I really don't know how many times this insane line of argument can be brought up on these forums.... One, probably not - but technically we will not know for another almost two years. Two, that is completely and totally irrelevant to which of them was the better folkstyle wrestler and would win a head to head folkstyle match as seniors in college. You and Plasmodium seem like you'd be best friends. Also, let me give you a totally seperate reason why that statement is absurd and ridiculous. JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is Dake even remotely capable of that? No, he probably isn't. So, does that mean now JB was better than Dake in college? I swear people don't even think before they write things.
  8. That is all well and good...but it is also mostly subjective opinion. The Senior JB would be Senior DT, etc, etc kind of stuff is nothing but subjective opinion. Even the "far more impressive wins/competition" (which I happen to agree with by the way) is a bit over-hyped. Yes, Burrough's beat a lot of guys who would become NCAA Champs..and yes 2008 149 was an absolutely insane weight class...but it is not as if he was beating all of these guys after they were already champs... Also, let's put this out there. If you think David Taylor is not right up with with Jordan Burroughs in college, even at his peak senior year...you are just wrong. Would he win? Who knows. Is it certain that he doesn't/couldn't? Not by a long shot.
  9. Let me put what you just said in different terms - to illustrate just how ridiculous it was. "When evaluating how good of a college wrestler he was, Burrough's post-college accomplishments are far more relevant than his performance while he was in college." Wow.
  10. I should be clear that, while I'm vehemently against Taylor being in the top 10 college wrestlers of all time, I firmly believe the content of the above post. Taylor is and will be, most likely, the better college wrestler as long as nothing weird happens this year. I don't know how this is not abundantly and unarguably clear to everyone here.
  11. No, I am not changing anything, because you just repeated the statement that started the argument in the first place. You can not group Burroughs in with those two in terms of greatest college wrestlers of all time....you just can not do it. And like I said...you are assuming way to easily that Burroughs his senior year is better than Taylor his junior/senior year. Why? Like I said - this is subjective and could be argued either way....that is exactly why when you create a GOAT list you go by assesing their careers and accomplishments - and in that regard Taylor is clearly ahead of Burroughs (restricted to college only, obviously) - but more importantly Burroughs is not even in the same discussion as Sanderson and Dake...let alone in that group you put him in. As for point two being crazy...I think you might want to re-read my point two...because I dont know what you are responding to - but it is obviously not point two.
  12. No, no, no. Please do not try to make it seem like I am basing the "better career" on just that. I made it very clear that my response was "off topic", and I was only showing how absurd and weak of an argument for Burroughs it was when you said"How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0." It is a silly and ridiculous argument to make in JB's favor...and I explained very clearly why.
  13. You are the one morphing the argument. And this statement is just 100% false, and demonstrably so. And it has be demonstrated, multiple times in this thread. Whether or not JB was the better wrestler as a senior is irrelevant - he DID NOT have the better NCAA career (assuming, again, that Taylor does what he most likely will do this year). I was clear earlier that I am not arguing about a career. I am merely stating the absurdly obvious. Jb ended his college career as a demonstrably better wrestler than DT will end his. Perhaps we don't even disagree! Two Things: 1) Yes, we do disagree - at minimum about how clear cut you think it is. JB at the end of his career was not "demonstrably better" than DT at the end of his. First because DT hasn't ended his yet. Second, because that is subjective and opinion, since they can not wrestle eachother at that point in their careers. 2) You were far from clear that you were not arguing that JB had the better career...you are now saying that. You spent multiple posts arguing that JB did have the better career - so I dont even know where this is coming from. But if you want to concede that DT did, in fact, have the better career (assuming he wins this year) then fine...you can say JB was better at the end all you want.
  14. Opinions are fine. But facts are facts. If Taylor goes undefeated and wins another title this year (which he most likely will) the fact will be that is NCAA career was better than Jordan Burrough's. Notice I didn't say that he beat tougher guys, or was better in the finals**, just that his career was better. ** This is off the topic, but I cant just let it go. I find it verrryyy interesting how you can make this argument in favor of JB. Taylor has made the NCAA finals 3 times - he has never not made the NCAA finals. But you say since he has lost twice in the finals then he loses points...but Burrough's not making the finals twice (indeed, not making AA once) does not lose him anything according to the argument? That is absurd. Ill take 2 for 4 in 4 NCAA finals appearances over 2 for 2 in 4 appearances any day. It is much more clear if you write it like this: JB: DNP-3-1-1 DT: 2-1-2-1*(again, assuming at this point) Who looks better now? Is he better than Jordan Burroughs is the question? Margaret Court has 24 grand Slam titles , was she better than Steffi Graf 22 or Navratilova 18, or are either one of those two better than Serena willams? What's your point? No, that isn't the question at all. The question is who had the better career - read back to catch up. The point I was making with this side note (which I stated was off topic) is that the "How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0. " argument is extremely weak and borderline ridiculous - for the reasons stated. **Typo in the first response. Should say "2 for 2 in 2 appearances" for JB.
  15. its got a lot more predictive power than if you were to base your forecasts on how two wrestlers fared against each other in a game of chess. i get your point, but its all relative. absent any other data points, i think freestyle match ups will be very valuable in predicting results in folkstyle. compared to other folkstyle results, they will be much less valuable, so it will depend on each unique situation. but to completely dismiss all freestyle results in all cases is not wise, IMHO. I never said, nor would I, "completely dismiss" all freestyle results. But some people give it far too much weight and predictive power IMO. This argument was born last year going into the Taylor v Dake hype...when a ton of people were saying something like "Dake pinned him in freestyle! Taylor has no chance in folk!" - this was absurd in that case...and would be in most cases.
  16. Opinions are fine. But facts are facts. If Taylor goes undefeated and wins another title this year (which he most likely will) the fact will be that is NCAA career was better than Jordan Burrough's. Notice I didn't say that he beat tougher guys, or was better in the finals**, just that his career was better. ** This is off the topic, but I cant just let it go. I find it verrryyy interesting how you can make this argument in favor of JB. Taylor has made the NCAA finals 3 times - he has never not made the NCAA finals. But you say since he has lost twice in the finals then he loses points...but Burrough's not making the finals twice (indeed, not making AA once) does not lose him anything according to the argument? That is absurd. Ill take 2 for 4 in 4 NCAA finals appearances over 2 for 2 in 2 appearances any day. It is much more clear if you write it like this: JB: DNP-3-1-1 DT: 2-1-2-1*(again, assuming at this point) Who looks better now?
  17. You are the one morphing the argument. And this statement is just 100% false, and demonstrably so. And it has be demonstrated, multiple times in this thread. Whether or not JB was the better wrestler as a senior is irrelevant - he DID NOT have the better NCAA career (assuming, again, that Taylor does what he most likely will do this year).
  18. This is where you are going off the rails. I am not arguing who was better at the end of their career...or comparing them at the end of their career. I even said it earlier in this thread that this is NOT what we are talking about. What we are talking about is comparing their NCAA careers, given that this is the only somewhat objective way to determine who gets on a top 10 all time list - since they obviously cant all wrestle off for it. Ill repeat what I said earlier: JB as a senior at 165 may have beaten Taylor as a Junior/Senior at 165 - but that doesn't matter in the slightest. His overall NCAA career is not as good or better than Taylor's (again assuming he does what he is supposed to do this year) - so JB does not belong on a list that Taylor is not on - let alone be listed in the same grouping with Cael and Dake - that is absurd.
  19. How exactly would you not be making this argument? If not..then what are you even saying? Your position is that freestyle results correlate very strongly to folk results (which I agree with - generally speaking) AND that freestyle results have very strong predictive power for folkstyle results. How does that not correlate to a statement such as "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should) beat Howe in folk."? How can you hold the position you hold but deny a statement like that? Yes I am including what happens in the match...did you miss the part when I broke down the scoring of the Taylor vs. Howe match - and explained that given the rule and scoring difference between freestyle and folkstyle the score would be drastically different if the same sequence happened if both styles - not to mention that the move that started the sequence (head pinch by Howe) would never be attempted and doesn't even exist in folk...did you miss that? Yes, obviously I am including what happens in the match and not just the final score. It seems like you continue to ignore that - which I have repeatedly stated as my main argument - and continue to quote other things I've said and question them. So, one more time, here it is" My Position: The match-rules and scoring-rules are so drastically different in freestyle vs. folkstyle, that the way a match goes in freestyle does not have much predictive power over how a match will turn out in folkstyle. Example: Taylor v Howe. The same scoring sequence that ended the freestyle match with a 9-0 tech fall would have only, at best (given that locking hands is illegal in folk - and that led to the 7-pts after the TD), resulted in a 2-0 lead for Taylor in a folkstyle match. It is not overly complicated - it has been beaten to death many times - and I have written out that same point on this forum too many times to count - I think that is now 4 times in this very thread.
  20. He was 2-0...he beat him in his RS year (in a very tight match)...and then he beat him in the finals his Freshman year. You are using that 2-0 record to say that, certainly had bubba still been at PSU as Taylor was coming off his RS he would have beat him out for the spot...nevermind that Taylor was leaps and bounds ahead of the RS version of himself (which Bubba barely beat) by the time he got into the PSU line up. You cant do that. Now...let me deal with this: "to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than JB. Two championships apiece. JB also had a 3rd, losing only to the champion( equivalent to 2nd). JB definitely beat the better competition. The freshman year is not relevant enough to distinguish Taylor. Given the virtually unprecedented level that JB proved himself to be at when he finished, he is the better guy." Wow, where to begin. Two Championships each (again assuming Taylor wins this year) - yes, no argument. JB has a 3rd - which is equivalent to a second...um no. JB definitely beat the better competition - ok, even if I grant you this - it doesn't make his NCAA resume any better overall. Also, lets not forget that Taylor had Dake to deal with last year...someone of a caliber which Burroughs never had to deal with in his NCAA career. The freshman year is not relevant enough to distinguish Taylor - What?! Why? Why is a freshman year in which you lose 1 match, in the NCAA finals, while competing in the toughest Conference in wrestling not "relevant" enough to distinguish him from a guy who was 3rd at his conference and went 1-2 at NCAAs as a freshman? That is just a nonsensical, and again baseless, statement. The virtually unprecidented level that JB proved himself to be at when he finished....again, you are factoring in his post-college accomplishments. You have to be to make this statement. If you look objectively and unbiasedly at Burroughs dominance vs. Taylor's dominance, you are hard pressed to call that a victory for Burroughs, let alone a clear cut on. If you want to throw around the word unprecedented and follow it with the word dominance...you are only making a case for David Taylor even stronger my friend.
  21. First off...come back to this thread when you get to a computer...whatever device you are using seems to be a post or two behind for some reason.... Second, to answer your questions: No - I don't think you are claiming you can predict exact scores...I am simply arguing that predicting results across styles based on results in the other style is not very useful - given the reasons I already discussed multiple times. And yes, my argument is reversible. Folkstyle results are similarly not extremely useful in predicting freestyle results - for the same reasoning (the rules and scoring are totally different). Although I would make a separate argument that it does translate that way a little bit better...but that is besides the point and I don't feel like getting into that.
  22. It's now become quite obvious that you don't get it... You're the one that doesn't get it. I get it just fine. Faber hasn't been sitting on his keester doing nothing, he trains extensively hard. It's not like he's out of shape completely. He may not be in wrestling shape, but it isn't impossible to get back into wrestling shape from the current shape he is in. I don't mind you saying that Steiber would beat him, that's fine. "Kill him" though? Seriously? Pin? Get real. Yes, he does. He trains extremely hard - to be a fighter. Stieber trains extremely hard also - to be a wrestler. It is just as ridiculous to say that Faber could hang with (let alone have a chance to beat) Stieber in a wrestling match as it is to say Stieber would beat Faber in an MMA fight. It actually is probably more ridiculous...because Stieber's wrestling has a chance (albeit a very very slim one) to slow down Faber's punching in a fight...whereas Faber's punching has 0 chance (being that it isn't allowed) to stop Stieber's wrestling in a wrestling match. Edit...maybe taking this example out of wrestling will illustrate how silly the argument you are making is: Christiano Ronaldo trains extremely hard also...Does that mean he could compete Kobe Bryant in a basketball game? (Allowing time to get in "basketball shape/mindset" obviously....)How about Kobe competing with Ronaldo in a soccer match? Im using these outrageous examples to very clearly illustrate the point...that the answer is no...the same as the answer in the Faber vs. Stieber wrestling match.
  23. Well, since you abandoned you other point, Ill assume you realized how off your listing was..and why. As for Taylor competing with Burroughs and Howe his freshman year...depends how you define compete..but for simplicity sake Ill just say no. When I said baseless at the beginning, you are illustrating why right now. "Bubba was the better wrestler at that point in their careers" - no...that is baseless. Did he end up winning in the finals that year? Yes. Does that mean, had he stayed at PSU for Taylor's RS freshman year he beats him out for the spot? No, it doesn't. You are making entirely too many assumptions...and then jumping ahead to make your points - that is what I mean by baseless.
  24. It's now become quite obvious that you don't get it...
  25. Yes, that is true. But it is totally meaningless when talking about match-to-match predictions...which this entire argument is about. We are talking very specifically...i.e. "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should) beat Howe in folk." This is simply not true...and I have illustrated, multiple times - with specific examples, why it is not true. The fact (yes fact - as in I am not arguing the truth to your point) that most of the time (aka "on the whole") it holds true that if you beat someone in freestyle you also beat them in folk - means nothing to the argument I am making - in regards to results being predictive across styles. Maybe you don't quite understand my position?...I don't know.
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