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PA-Fan

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Everything posted by PA-Fan

  1. Yes. Pat Smith is in the top 5 collegiate wrestlers of all time.
  2. You are just not following the argument - you are making your own as you go. You are the one who began to shift the argument, with you 600 word post when you joined this discussion. The point started very simple and not jumbled up - so I will state it again - When discussing NCAA folkstyle wrestling careers, which is not the same thing as "Who is the better wrestler (overall)" - freestyle accomplishments should not be considered, period. Let me illustrate my point with a hypothetical example: Wrestler X is a 4 time HS State Champion and a 4 time NCAA finalist and 2 time champion. He has no freestyle success to speak of - not so much as a Cadet title - although he has competed in all levels of freestyle. Wrestler Y is a 1 Time HS State Champion and a 3 time NCAA AA (7-5-4). He has great freestyle success - Cadet and Junior World Titles and is a member of the US World Team. When comparing Wrestler X to Wrestler Y in terms of folkstyle ability - what reason is there to bring their freestyle accomplishments into the equation? None. It is very clear cut in this (obviously exaggerated and unrealistic) example. Wrestler X is the much better folkstyle wrestler, while Wrestler Y is the much better freestyle wrestler. The two are very different - and one is not needed to evaluate the other, period.
  3. It's extremely unlikely, but theoretically could make the team better. Taylor at 174 is a potential champ (I see him beating Howe and Perry). If Brown isn't too drained he is a potential champ at 165 with his only competition being Caldwell. If things stay as they are now, Taylor wins 165 while Brown winds up anywhere from 2nd to 6th. Even a DNP is possible if he gets a tough draw and runs into one of the other studs in the blood round. This is my favorite argument people use. "He already lost to this guy - how can he beat him in the future?!" You would think after seeing some of the turn-arounds in the past decade people would learn that previous results - when talking about guys on the same high level - are not reliable. Also, this is all ridiculous anyway because Taylor is not going 174...it makes literally no sense whatsoever. When we start hearing about Howe going 165 then lets continue with the "Howe is way to strong for Taylor - didnt you see their freestyle match!?" argument. Until then let's give it a rest.
  4. I don't need to answer why there is such a high correlation - I don't dispute it. The only thing I ever said is it is a misleading stat when people attempt to use it to compare across styles. The thing you are missing here is this: I acknowledge your point - that there is a great correlation of success across the two styles, I simply think it is misleading in the way you are attempting to use it. Think "Correlation does not imply causation." On the flip side, you are just tossing my point aside - that the two styles are very different. This is evident - all you have to do is compare them. People who are good at football will most likely be good at Rugby - the two sports require similar skills, but they have very different rules. Football and Rugby share many similarities as well, yet even knowing this it is obvious that they are very different given the scoring/rules/etc. Folkstyle vs. Freestyle wrestling is the same idea - the same skill set is required for each so if you are good at one you will most likely be good at the other, but the rules and scoring are very different between them - and you cannot just point to their similarities and say "See, they are the same they have so much in common!" - and completely ignore how different they actually are.
  5. Im glad you can decide so easily that higher level of competition outweighs completely different rules and scoring as a determining transitional success from folk to free. Still a ton, like you have been mentioning huh? I still say it is quite evident that freestyle is completely different than folkstyle - literally almost to the point of not being the same sport (it has the same goals / idea behind it, but the structure/scoring/rules are vastly different). This is a major, major point that you seem to be disregarding with your arguments. You'd find no top tier D1 coach, or many other coaches from any level who would say that the sports are "completely different...almost to the point of not being the same sport". Not seriously at least, maybe when they are complaining about the current rules, but not with a clear head. I'm not disregarding the point at all, it's just not nearly as big of a factor as you think it is. And it is a much, much, much bigger factor than you think it is. Make a side by side comparison of Folkstyle vs. Freestyle scoring and rules - and see how incredibly different it is. Even the structure is nowhere near the same. Freestyle is won in periods! You can lose 6-0 and that deficit is erased after the period - no such thing in folk. The two are vastly - vastlyyyy - different.
  6. Im glad you can decide so easily that higher level of competition outweighs completely different rules and scoring as a determining factor in transitional success from folk to free. Still a ton, like you have been mentioning huh? I still say it is quite evident that freestyle is completely different than folkstyle - literally almost to the point of not being the same sport (it has the same goals / idea behind it, but the structure/scoring/rules are vastly different). This is a major, major point that you seem to be disregarding with your arguments.
  7. No, it's not "having your cake, and eating it too". If the competition were on the same level, that would be different. But since international freestyle is wrestled on a much higher level than ncaa wrestling, (with far better athletes) it doesn't make sense to consider the results against inferior competition in the opposite direction. For example, when an elite, world champion wrestler is able to dominate opponents at the world level with his wrestling ability, he is extremely likely to do it on the lower ncaa level. Look at the few who have actually became truly elite on the world level in college, and see how they did in college once they got to that level (Uetake, Hodge, Smith). Now consider all the elite, dominating college wrestlers on the ncaa level and see how many of them have had great struggles against the better competition. The list is extremely long, look no further than David Taylor. And that's no insult, he's far from the first, and will be far from the last. He's unstoppable by 99% of college wrestlers, but as of right now, he's just an average wresler among the world's elite. Yes, there is differences in style that must be considered, but let's just take an example. In college, Taylor completely dominates on his feet, outside of Dake, there's no one else even close at his weight class. Taylor couldn't come close to dominating like that against the top guys, not by a long shot. Look at the last olympic trials and what Dake, and Howe did to him. Especially Howe, who used moves that would work in the exact same way in folkstyle. Howe's special, but there are a ton of Howe's on the world stage who could have did the same thing to Taylor at that stage last year, and probably this year too. Is it because it is higher level of competition - or is it because it is a completely different style of wrestling complete with different scoring, rules, etc - as I have been saying continuously? You acknowledge the different styles by mentioning it - but completely ignore it in your analysis. You were the one who introduced the skill level into the equation - I am talking, and have been since the beginning, purely about the style differences from folk to free and how they are totally different.
  8. I already granted that speaking in a general sense those who succeed at folkstyle succeed at freestyle and vice versa. That is completely besides the original point I made. When discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments, and who is a better folkstyle wrestler - freestyle results simply do not belong in the equation. It is really that simple. It's disingenuous to call Folkstyle and Freestyle "completely different styles"? Wow. I guess I'll chalk that up to sloppy wording on your part - because they are obviously completely different styles or they would just be the same. More to the point - more similar than dissimilar? How is that exactly? With the rule and scoring differences from folk to free, how can you actually say that? You can score in freestyle much easier than in folk, and in many different ways that you can not in folk. It is completely different - so much so that there are a completely different set of rules and the structure of the match is, again, completely different. I don't know how you can say they are anything but completely different. A knowledgeable fan can do that simply by recognizing that freestyle is completely irrelevant to folkstyle - in regards to comparing one guy to another in folkstyle. It isn't only about folkstyle accomplishments (higher placer, etc) when deciding who is better - maybe Smith had tougher competition, maybe Mocco being a HWT sways the discussion in Smith's favor, etc. Maybe Mocco had a better folkstyle career than Smith, and Smith had a much better freestyle career - that is also possible. You don't have to win both categories. Again, see my Sanderson vs. Smith example. Cael was the much better folkstyle wrestler of the two - Smith the much better freestyle wrestler of the two. Simple - the two are totally different and should be treated as such
  9. So, it makes no sense to take results against "weaker" NCAA competition to evaluate freestyle skill level - but it makes perfect sense to take results in a completely different style (different rules, scoring, etc) and evaluate folkstyle skill level? My friend, that is what I call "having your cake, and eating it too!"
  10. You are not "supposed to" go out of your way, after an event (and your career) - in a bad way no less- has ended to congratulate and wish good luck to an opponent. It was 100% a class act by McDonough. Saying anything different is ridiculous.
  11. Well that is just having your cake, and eating it too. If it goes one way - it has to go the other way too. Good thing I don't think it should really even go the first way :D
  12. Maybe you should read back through the conversation since you stopped participating. If you still don't understand after doing so, then there is nothing more I can say to make you understand. Every point you try to make here I have addressed already.
  13. I am not saying that specifically right now, although I do agree with it. While on the whole there is much overlap in who is successful in free will also be success to basically the same degree in folk - this is/can be very misleading. The results do not translate directly from freestyle to folkstyle, especially if you are comparing two wrestlers head to head (such as Dake and Taylor)- again due to the rule/scoring differences in freestyle. If you are talking generally in the sense that you are saying "Wrestler X is very successful in freestyle - therefore he will also be successful in folk" - ok. But if you are speaking specifically about match ups saying "Wrestler X beat Wrestler Y 6-0, 6-0 in freestyle, therefore he will obviously be much better (by a similar margin) in folk" - no, not so much. There are many factors that come into play (rules, scoring, etc) in the second scenario that can be overlooked in the first. No, it certainly should not be a factor considered when comparing a wrestler's place in college history. If that were the case, John Smith should basically be considered a better Collegiate wrestler than Cael Sanderson, based on his Multiple World and Olympic titles - or vice versa Cael should be considered a better international wrestler than John Smith based on his 4 NCAA titles and undefeated career. --- Going either way it is silly - the two are totally different entities...that is the point I am trying to make.
  14. It seems like you are even more quickly forgetting how good Logan Stieber is (right now). Also consider the fact he is a 2-time NCAA champion as a sophmore - he has 2 full years left. No knock on Lee - he was an absolute monster. But he would be an underdog in this match - up.
  15. First of all, I was not even talking originally about results-crossover. But I will address it anyway since you mention it. Yes, many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle. Many more are not. For example: simply exposing/rolling over someone's back is points in free - not in folk. Throwing someone gets you automatic bonus points in freestyls - not in folk. Touch falls exist in free - not in folk. You can give up points while executing a move you are controlling in free - not in folk. Going out of bounds is a point in free - not in folk. Need I continue? (This is not even touching on the rule differences - i.e. locking hands, etc) No, I don't deny that at all. How does that make it relevant to bring up freestyle results/accomplishments when we are discussing folkstyle careers? It is as much of a non sequitur as saying "Wrestler A is a 5 time Junior world grappling champion - so that counts towards his NCAA Wrestling accomplishments." Good points. Usually when the top tier guys meet eachother in either style, the matches are decided by takedowns (especially in American matches). That is usually a pretty good guage for what would happen in a folkstyle matchup. Freestyle results have always been brought up when discussing folkstyle careers, at least for the past 50+ years. When you accomplish something major in the international styles, that says a lot about your overall skill as a wrestler. It's far from the only thing to consider, but to dismiss it completely is also a mistake. In fact, I know of no major wrestling figure who would ever dream of not considering freestyle results at all, and none who would say that grappling is just as relevant as freestyle when discussing folkstyle careers. I dont dispute anything up until the bolded. Freestyle and Folkstyle success are not mutually exclusive - and they are not interdependent. You can be great at folk at not so good at free or vice versa (for whatever reason). My original point is pretty straight forward - when discussing NCAA folkstyle careers/accomplishments/etc - there is no reason to bring up freestyle at all (be it for results comparison, accomplishments, what have you). It is a totally different entity - and it is akin to bring up the fact that someone is a Junior World grappling champion. It is not relevant to the discussion being had - no matter how many similarities the two share.
  16. First of all, I was not even talking originally about results-crossover. But I will address it anyway since you mention it. Yes, many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle. Many more are not. For example: simply exposing/rolling over someone's back is points in free - not in folk. Throwing someone gets you automatic bonus points in freestyls - not in folk. Touch falls exist in free - not in folk. You can give up points while executing a move you are controlling in free - not in folk. Going out of bounds is a point in free - not in folk. Need I continue? (This is not even touching on the rule differences - i.e. locking hands, etc) No, I don't deny that at all. How does that make it relevant to bring up freestyle results/accomplishments when we are discussing folkstyle careers? It is as much of a non sequitur as saying "Wrestler A is a 5 time Junior world grappling champion - so that counts towards his NCAA Wrestling accomplishments."
  17. You not seeing why this statement is wrong is the entire problem. Imagine if they had an exhibition Judo or Grappling match after the All star Classic. Would the outcome of that be relevant to their college careers too? Would it be an accurate way to determine which of them would win in folkstyle / and by how wide a margin? After all, it did occur during their folkstyle wrestling career. :roll: Freestyle is a completely different set of rules and requires a completely different approach to being successful. It is borderline a different sport altogether (like Judo, Grappling, etc in my example) given the rule/scoring/technique differences. Freestyle results are not relevant when discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments/comparisons/etc (especially when they occur while the athlete is focused full-time on folkstyle and not freestyle). It is an extremely simple idea to grasp, yet so many here refuse to do so. Whether we like it or not, freestyle accomplishments are relevant to discussing collegiate athletes who also choose to compete in that style. Of course they're different, but there is a ton of overlap between the results of the 2 styles. Comparing freestyle to judo and grappling is silly. Not in the way I actually did it. Please read more carefully. I used that example to illustrate why bringing up freestyle results in a discussion of folkstyle careers/results/etc is a total non sequitur. Freestyle has completely different rules and scoring. And it all but eliminates the top/bottom position from the wrestling. This is not debatable. I am not saying better or worse - but very different it is - this is a fact. Bringing up results in a freestyle match and then connecting those results (as evidence) to discussion of folkstyle is no different that bringing up results in a grappling match for the same reason. Also, even more silly, saying they are relevant "because they occurred during their folkstyle career" is just nonsense - as I also pointed out.
  18. It's extremely unlikely, but theoretically could make the team better. Taylor at 174 is a potential champ (I see him beating Howe and Perry). If Brown isn't too drained he is a potential champ at 165 with his only competition being Caldwell. If things stay as they are now, Taylor wins 165 while Brown winds up anywhere from 2nd to 6th. You are switching a basically certain Champ at 165 up to 174 to face possibly his only competition in college (Howe) plus having him wrestle bigger guys now - and simultaneously taking your returning finalist at 174 ( who is not small to begin with) and sucking him down another 9 lbs for the entire season. That does not make the team stronger - no matter how you spin it.
  19. Not going to happen. You can't be shuffling with the line-up of the team who just won their 3rd title in a row and is favored to win a 4th just because "it would be something" to see Taylor go up and face Howe. I'd love to see it - but I don't think it happens. Unless Taylor has to go up because of weight issues (he doesn't) - he can't do it. Ruth is going nowhere - so someone would be bumped out - for no reason. Taylor at 165 is clearly best for the team. Here's hoping Howe goes 165!! :D
  20. Well I know you are just trolling. Those two one-point wins (one on a late reversal) and one OT ride out win (in the AS) were sure manhandle-ings!!!
  21. You not seeing why this statement is wrong is the entire problem. Imagine if they had an exhibition Judo or Grappling match after the All star Classic. Would the outcome of that be relevant to their college careers too? Would it be an accurate way to determine which of them would win in folkstyle / and by how wide a margin? After all, it did occur during their folkstyle wrestling career. :roll: Freestyle is a completely different set of rules and requires a completely different approach to being successful. It is borderline a different sport altogether (like Judo, Grappling, etc in my example) given the rule/scoring/technique differences. Freestyle results are not relevant when discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments/comparisons/etc (especially when they occur while the athlete is focused full-time on folkstyle and not freestyle). It is an extremely simple idea to grasp, yet so many here refuse to do so.
  22. All 1 time champions are boys among men - especially when they have the resume of Taylor! :roll: I'm truly amazed at your ability to continue to top yourself with the nonsense you write - sincerely it amazes me! That one statement bothered me more than any other. If wrestling fans can't appreciate even one time champions and the hard work and sacrifice they put out, how do us wrestling fans expect the sport to grow into the mainstream and become more poplular in our country. With all due respect to Northernfan, he seems as if he's more of a casual "espn soundbite" type of fan. If you're not a Kyle Dake or Cael Sanderson type wrestler, you are nothing. If ESPN doesn't take notice, then the athlete must be a nobody. Northernfan, surely you must realize what David Taylor means to our sport. Please tell me you're just busting balls here and understand what a truly remarkable athlete Taylor is. If not, and you are considered a wrestling fan, then the sport is in big big trouble because your Dakes and Sandersons only come around once in a blue moon. What will keep fans like you interested in the sport while you are waiting for the next 4 timer? What will keep the sport alive while we wait on the next "elite"? He is due no respect, since he gives none - to wrestlers or other posters. And I stated before, I believe he is serious. There always needs to be a "Marty" around.
  23. Just sticking to the inane arguments he puts forth to support his equally inane statements is enough to put him to shame. It isn't even necessary to point out his inability to grasp the English language and grammatical form!! :lol:
  24. Lee was a beast, but... I'd pick Stieber 9 times out of 10. His positioning is just amazing.
  25. All 1 time champions are boys among men - especially when they have the resume of Taylor! :roll: I'm truly amazed at your ability to continue to top yourself with the nonsense you write - sincerely it amazes me!
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