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Everything posted by MSU158

  1. Palmer improved IMMENSELY by his Senior season. Also, a vast majority of those losses(26) came his first 2 seasons as a TRUE Freshman and Sophomore in arguably the toughest weight class of all time! I would also say the amount of losses is a true testament to the quality and depth of competition during Metcalf's run compared to Retherford's. Palmer had multiple losses to Metcalf, Schlatter, Churella and Jenkins, but also beat them. For instance, his losses at NCAA's: 2007-Churella, Schlatter 2008: Metcalf, Churella, Schlatter 2009: Metcalf, Ruschell 2010: Metcalf Retherford simply DID NOT see nearly the depth and quality of competition during his 3 seasons at 149.
  2. Ridden by multiple opponents? I would love the detailed "multiple opponents" list and the amount of time involved. Out of 6 wrestling matches, Palmer rode him significantly 1 single time. In the Caldwell match, riding time was only accrued due to multiple takedowns and the fact that Metcalf needed to immediately cut him to try to get back into the match. What other match(es) was/were there? Edited to add: While at 149, who did Retherford wrestle that was a strong rider? I would argue that Palmer was considerably tougher on top than ANYONE Retherford wrestled at 149........By the way, Stieber did ride Retherford really hard, so Retherford was not 100% immune to getting ridden against the best.
  3. I doubt anyone could really research this, but what percentage of falls are called when a pinning combination starts with less than 5 seconds left in a period? I would think it quite low. In fact, how many falls are called inside 4 seconds, period? Refs have reaction time too. Even more so with cradles where angles are usually more difficult to find to clearly see both shoulders are on the mat at the same time. Maybe a fall should have been called. Maybe it was actually called correctly. It wasn’t nearly as clear as many say.
  4. You may want to recheck that against your results....
  5. Churella was so dangerous with that defensive cradle. He was legitimately baiting Hendricks the entire match and was just very unlucky he landed it when he did. With that said, he would have been stalled out of the match under today’s rules. He would immediately work to go outside the circle once Hendricks got to his legs. Also, remember that cylinder takedown rule was pretty new then. Refs were calling takedowns much more liberally if the action went on and you had to legs below the knee. Even if the defensive wrestler was still facing him, negating control.
  6. Do I think he could beat that version? Yes. He would need to wrestle a more calculating match in the 1st period and stay clean on his high crotches to not let Caldwell turn the corner. Still, I would probably slightly favor that Caldwell if he can get a lead early like he did that match. But, as I said before, I don’t think he could maintain that level day in and day out. He would still always have that puncher’s chance because he is such a dangerous pinner, but I would favor Metcalf against that version. if he stuck to the proper adjustments.
  7. Yep, but I believe it simply because Metcalf was always ready to go and, sadly, Caldwell often wasn’t. Say what you will, but you can’t deny that Metcalf was always on his game and Caldwell was, both, inconsistent and injury prone. The above is why I don’t like judging these matchups solely on their peak performance. Some guys just can’t/couldn’t hit their peak on a regular basis. That is why it is so ridiculously hard to go undefeated in a season, let alone a career.
  8. Hmm, I wouldn’t mind some elaborating there. Pendleton started at the same time as Zeke. So, are you saying all the top talent like the Valencias, Benick(transferred out), Shields, Maruca, Norfleet, Belshay, Courtney, Teemer and especially #1 Schultz had nothing to do with Chris?
  9. I have to agree and I am a state of Michigan guy, even when they wrestle for UofM. 1.) I have no issue with the non fall call. Nearly every time a cradle is locked up the call takes some time since it is often hard to find an angle to verify both shoulders are flat. This is especially so since the position came from defending a single leg and the ref wasn’t going to immediately be in position to see and call the fall. 2.). Churella wrestled super defensively and Hendricks was getting to his legs at will. I can’t blame the ref for getting caught up in that and being quite liberal with the takedown calls. Still, I would say 1 or 2 of those probably should have been called fleeing the mat instead of a takedown.
  10. Zain was legit. As I said before, I would have a hard time picking Metcalf over him. However, take some time and look at their respective brackets. If you closely followed the weights during those times, I don’t see how you can’t tell that Zain’s competition simply pales in comparison. For an example, take Brandon’s Sorensen. He was probably the best wrestler those 3 seasons. Do you really see him doing better, or even as well, in the 08-10 brackets? For the record, I don’t think you are off with your opinion of Retherford. In folkstyle, he was every bit as good as you say. However, so was Metcalf. I absolutely believe Metcalf single handedly re-focused most DI teams(at least the high level guys) back to super high level conditioning. I think there was a stretch where the focus was more on technique prior to him hitting the scene. I think this is especially true of Palmer. Watch him his senior season vs. his prior seasons. He was every bit as good as the top guys every season, but he faded late. His senior season, all of a sudden, his gas tank didn’t falter and he finally squeezed a match from Metcalf!
  11. Not necessarily true, especially in Caldwell’s case. It can be argued that he rarely, if maybe only 1 weekend, reached that peak. That is why it isn’t really accurate or even fair to judge someone based only on 1 weekend. Was Sean Moisey really the 2nd best 125? I would still bet that if Caldwell and Metcalf wrestled 10 times, Metcalf would have won the majority. He was simply at our near his best almost all the time. Caldwell wasn’t even close to his less than half the time.
  12. Read what I wrote there, big guy. At 149. His last 3 years are what we’re being compared to Metcalf and also at the same weight class. I just don’t think the level of competition during each guy’s 3 year span were comparable.
  13. It was what he used to say about Palmer, until his senior year. Palmer was super defensive and very hard to score on, but he didn’t open up at all when losing and appeared “content” to lose. However, his senior season, Metcalf wasn’t saying that. With a newly found gas tank, Palmer became a fully rounded hammer his last season.
  14. This sounds a lot like the Taylor vs Dake comparisons. Those didn’t work out too well for Taylor. Also, it can be a bit misleading when you say it like you did. Including the scores of the other matches, again similar to Dake, would show that nearly all the matches weren’t close, even if they didn’t result in bonus: 08:(argued to be the toughest bracket of all time) fall over Rowe, 10-5 over Kinser, 3-2 over Palmer(I would argue him to be much better than anyone Retherford wrestled at 149), 8-4 over Burroughs and 14-8 over Jenkins. 09: fall over Levalley, fall over Barnes, 14-5 over Terry, 6-2 over Palmer and loss 11-6 to Caldwell. 10: 15-6 over Washington, 20-7 over Borschoff, 16-4 over Mueller, 6-2 over Terry and 3-2 over Palmer.
  15. Caldwell was a bad matchup for Metcalf, but clearly better? I love how everyone just summarily dismisses the All Star result. Caldwell was definitely super talented, very dangerous and a very good wrestler when peaked. However, he was absolutely inconsistent and injury prone. There is a reason he was only a 1xer. Metcalf, on the other hand, was probably the most consistent wrestler from the beginning of his career to the very end. He was going to be just as hard to beat in November as he was in March.
  16. There is no doubt he improved considerably. The Askren documentary on FLO did a great job showing how Askren went from being so frustrated as a true freshman getting pounded in the room, to the “grandmaster of funk”. Pendleton was a beast his last 2 seasons and had the offensive skill set to finish cleanly on Askren early on. But, Askren was on a different level his last 2 seasons.
  17. There is a strong argument that the quality of competition for Retherford was considerably less. Remember, a 15 seeded Perry made the finals Retherfords last season. He wasn’t remotely a Jenkins, Caldwell or Palmer. Neither was Mayes or Sorenson for that matter Retherford was awesome and I would have a hard time picking Metcalf, even though I am a huge fan. But, Metcalf was extremely dominant as well.
  18. This system is rigged and I summarily dismiss it as propaganda. I am by far the best poster on this site in every possible category that I deem important. I demand all of you edit your posts on this thread and properly praise me. If not, I will crush you all as I watch you driven before me while LAUGHING at the lamentations of your women!
  19. This system is VERY basic. It goes simply by placement points. 1st-16, 2nd-12, 3rd-10, 4th-9, 5th-7, 6th-6, 7th-4, 8th-3 So, Nicholson 8th-3 and 8th-3 would only get him 6 points.
  20. Liability is the issue here, first and foremost. If social distancing is still being called for there is NO WAY football is played. Even if you barebones the teams, staff and officials, you will have roughly 100 people absolutely susceptible to exposure from 1, let alone multiple, infected people. 1 lawsuit could cost them more than 1 lost season. It sucks, but this situation is going to have long lasting effects on everyone!
  21. Senior year Robles May actually be the best 118/125 1 year version in DI wrestling. His style made him almost impossible to take down. You couldn’t ride him and his tilt was damn near unstoppable. I am a big fan of Lee, but I don’t know if there is a 125 I would pick against Robles. I would definitely say Lee has as good of a chance as anyone, but I wouldn’t bet anything serious against Robles. His senior year, he was just that good!
  22. But, the way wrestling is structured, it can be argued that they truly did NOT get their season. In fact, this year was a big example of the NCAA Tournament being basically all that matters with so many top wrestlers wresting so few matches. Hell, if not for the RPI mandatory match limit, many top guys wouldn’t have even had 15 matches after their conference championships. This was especially true of Iowa and PSU’s schedule. I am not saying that they definitively deserve a full season, I would advocate for 1 semester, but I do believe the qualifying wrestlers have as strong of an argument as possible out of every sport eligible. So much is decided by that last tournament for individual status, while a sport like basketball picks its AA’s The same way they would regardless. I said earlier that it was too much of a logistical nightmare for it too happen, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it should have.
  23. I wasn’t saying the weight itself was actually that weak, although definitely thin. If you re-read what I said, what I called weak was Brooks’ schedule. As far as Zahid goes, he wasn’t going to wrestle at NCAA’s, so for all intensive purposes it was like he never wrestled 184 to begin with.
  24. Yep, and Venz wasn’t even an AA last season. I think Brooks is truly a talent, but his schedule was so weak on top of the weight being really thin.
  25. 125: (4) Lee, Mueller, Picc, Glory. 133: (5) Gross, Rivera, DeSanto, RBY, Bridges. 141: (8) Pletcher, Lee, Demas, Red, McKee, Wilson, Perry, Leeth 149: (6) Lugo, O'Connor, Kolodzik, Degen, Mauller, Boo 157: (4) Deakin, Hidlay, Young, Early 165: (6) Marinelli, Joseph, Wick, White, Shields, McFadden 174: (7) Hall, Kemerer, Kutler, Skatzka, Labriola, Steiert, Smith 184: (1) Venz 197: (6) Moore, Darmstadt, Warner, Brucki, Rasheed, Geer 285: (6) Steveson, Wood, Stencel, Hillger, Hall, Hokit tied for 3rd.
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