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Posts posted by MSU158

  1. 1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

    can you read? i never suggested he wasn't ready. they hadn't decided if he was going to redshirt or not. the common view heading into that year was that they weren't good enough to win a title with him, so why not save his eligibility for a year when they would be? the acl recovery keeping him off the mat until november added more weight to this view. it was a surprise when they pulled him.

    it's like asking why cael held mark hall out against jim wilson and ryan preisch while he was clearly "ready" because he was wrestling opens. because they hadn't decided to use him yet. any person with common sense could figure that out.

    Wait...Did you just use a common sense argument literally citing an example of a PSU wrestler doing nearly the same thing?  Mind blown!

  2. 1 minute ago, Class said:

    If March is ALL that matters then I concur.  I wish this wasn't the case but clearly everything has trended in this direction, which is ruining the sport.  You actually called the season the "offseason".

    "was going to buy a ticket to the dual but then I heard you say all that matters is NCAAs in March and thought better of it".

    Trust me I HATE IT!!!!  I would love a system that mandates more participation during the regular season.  I WANT duals to matter.  But, this sport decides team titles based on that last tournament as well as whether or not you are a Champion, Finalist and or an All American.  Teams want to avoid injuries more than ever and Covid has really pushed that trend to its limits.  I really think the days of 40+ matches are gone at the DI level and even 20+ matches are going to be few and far between.  

    Sad, but true  :(

  3. 7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

    Freshman year: He did not wrestle vs Rutgers on December 8. He then DID wrestle 3 matches in the UNI Open December 9. 

    To suggest he wasn't ready on the 8th and then magically was ready on the 9th is silly and anyone with common sense could figure that out. 

    Because they weren't sure they were pulling his redshirt yet and that is OFTEN the case with true freshmen...

  4. 14 minutes ago, Class said:

    No argument here.  Dake was boring and had he not gone up to 165 and been so successful post collegiately his legacy would be perhaps par with Pat Smith.

    David Taylor, Nolf and Logan Stieber were amazing point scorers with Stieber being similar in the top position.


    17 minutes ago, Class said:

    Cmon -- The most impressive thing about any wrestler is going through a season unscored upon.  It is so rare and an amazing accomplishment.

    Styles dictate that and some just don't lend themselves to it.  David Taylor, Nolf, Metcalf, Brands, etc. were all exceptional wrestlers with a nonstop pace that scored in bunches.  They literally wrestled EVERY second of the match, but that left them open to takedowns from time to time.  But, it also meant those takedowns were almost always irrelevant.

    Meanwhile, you had a guy like Mack Lewnes that would spend half the match holding center and the rest with a guy on his legs, but his hips and thighs were so strong that he almost never was squared up on(until Borschel).  Point being, it actually is a lot easier to hold position and play defense than it is to score in bunches at the DI level.  Now that isn't to say that someone like Dake doesn't deserve immense credit for being able to dictate positions and control every match, but it is a lot easier to hone a style(as long as the refs don't call stalling) that isn't scored upon than it is one that scores a lot...

  5. 5 minutes ago, Class said:

    Hypothetically Stieber and above since that is the crux of the argument.

    Ncaa placement/Win %/Quality of Competition/Details of Losses/Opponent offense surrendered/career record

    Lee matches him on the 1st one (assuming a 4th this year).  The rest are all clearly in Stieber's court.

    If you factor the other items as much as NCAA placement then guys like Zain, Gable, Nickal, Nolf, Askren and Taylor have valid arguments.  the real old timers like Tom Brands, Gable, Kemp, Uetake, etc. are just before my time.  Recency bias is always alive and well.

    You just aren't giving enough credit to the version of Lee in March.  Because, lets be clear, March is really ALL that matters.  I get knocking Lee for his offseason, to a degree, but even Dake lost in similar fashion his 1st 2 seasons.  After that he dominated and after that, Lee has also.  He has had less matches, with Covid causing that even more than any injuries, but Lee is 30-0 since, with 28 bonus wins and the 2 regular decisions were 7-0 and 8-1.  

    Here is his actual performance at NCAA's:

    2018: 18-0, 18-0, FALL(Nick Piccinini)i, FALL(NaTo) and 5-1(Suriano)

    2019:  18-0, 10-1, FALL, 11-4(Nick Piccininni) and 5-0(Mueller)

    2020:  Didn't happen(Covid)

    2021:  16-1, 15-5, 10-2, 11-0 and 7-0


    You simply can't ignore that level of dominance while focusing almost solely on injury shortened regular seasons and overvaluing losses in his true freshman and true soph years.  In fact, except for Bresser, he has crushed everyone else multiple times, beating Rivera (12-0 and 7-4), Piccininni(10-5, FALL, 11-4 and 12-3) and NATO(3-2 and FALL).

    Make no mistake, IF Lee wins NCAA's again in similar fashion, he ABSOLUTELY is an All Time Great.  Now, I would have no issue if someone wants to still argue the other 4xers over him, but he would absolutely deserve to be in the conversation above EVERYONE else...

  6. 54 minutes ago, NJDan said:

    Even tho there was no tournament that year?

    To be clear, EVERYONE that wrestled attached had 2019 count against their eligibility.  As an effort to soften that blow, the NCAA made 2020 a free year.  So, that hurt guys like  Pletcher, Lugo, Joseph, Hall and Moore who graduated in 2019 and didn't come back for that year, but it essentially gave the 2019 year back to everyone else.

    Now, any freshman that didn't wrestle in 2019, has the benefit of counting 2020 as year zero and that is why they have a chance at 5 years.  So , Brooks only has 3 more chances since he wrestled in 2019, even though he was considered a freshman in 2020...

  7. 48 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

    I didn't mean what you are saying I did. I'm not going to dig a deeper hole and post more after this. But I was a D1 heavyweight so this isn't just a pop-up thought of mine. Football, rugby, baseball, basketball all the best walking at 6' or taller and are 200+ pounds. If they had a reason to choose wrestling then the US would constantly have a Russia problem where 5 of the top 10 in the world would be located in the US. I saw the athletes in other sports and wished they would have come to our sport instead of sticking to the traditional sports and the outcome is that for every Gable Steveson and Stephen Neal and Kyle Snyder, we have 800 Ray Lewis (state champ) and JT Realmutos and Garret Goebels and Russ Weils and Carlin Isles that are incentivized to chase even that fringe dream or a Danny Barret or Nate Ebner that probably never thought twice of leaving the field or pitch to try it out on the mat. Wrestling is a low-paying sport pushed for the little man that can't make the team on the traditional sports. Hell, look at the Iowa o-line - they pride themselves on their wrestling background but they sure as hell didn't have a reason to stick with the sport. That's all I meant. Sorry for what this has caused.

    But, couldn't it be argued we are at or near that state now?  I mean we have Gable, Gwiz, Parris, Cass, Kerkvliet, Coon and Schultz.   I would daresay our depth at HWT destroy every other country by a considerable margin!

  8. 4 hours ago, gowrestle said:

    Where is the best place to stay in Detroit for the Nationals?

    There isn’t a set answer unless you say what you are looking for. Do you want to be really close to the arena? Do you want to do some gambling? How long are you staying?  Do you want a place that has restaurants/bars right inside?  Are you willing to spend some money?

    With that said, if I stay downtown, I am partial to the Detroit Marriot, which is inside the Renaissance Center. Higher end with about as nice of a high rise view option of the city. Has all the amenities Inside and is pretty close to the arena. 

    if not there, and you like casinos, I would recommend the MGM Grand Resort out of the 3 casinos. I like the food options better at Greektown Casino, but I am not sure I would stay there.  Never been a big fan of Motor City, but they do have a solid poker room. 

    After that, there are still a bunch of choices but the above are the only ones I feel experienced enough in to comment on. 

  9. 14 hours ago, Lurker said:

    What about people that don't have a wrestling school?


    EDIT:...meaning people that don't have a favorite D1 team.

    Nothing says you have to and no one should tell you different. Like I said, I am often a fan of kids from Michigan first, no matter what team they are on.

    In fact, it probably is easier to just be a fan of the wrestling and not getting bogged down in the my team is better than yours crap!

  10. 3 hours ago, PSUSMC said:

    MSU - I am a Penn State (main campus) alumni.

    I don't spend time at HR, so I have no care or idea what they think of you.

    And, yeah, lighten up, it's just about Thanksgiving weekend.

    Respect given. When you spent the time and the money, you have much more right to talk both ways. My issue is with people who chose to be fans of a certain school talking up the school they had no part of while blasting fans of another. Especially when that team is a powerhouse. 

    it is real easy to choose to be a fan of the best team. It is a LOT harder to be way closer to a program that literally went from 3rd when I was there to scoring 1 point or less at NCAA’s…

  11. 13 minutes ago, BAC said:

    Dude, you're one of the biggest Iowa homers here, and pretty much everyone knows it.  But you know what else?  No one cares!  Be a homer.  Without a bunch of homers sniping at each other, these forums would be dead.  And to your credit, you do usually make an effort to trot out some actual facts to support your position, so sometimes you're even right, homer motivations notwithstanding.  But when you deny your bias or get all indignant about it, it just makes you look dishonest.  Don't do that, man.  Just say yeah, I'm an Iowa homer, but I'm still right because of fact X or Y.  All the other homers will do the same, and we'll all have a grand ol' time, arguing and eating turkey.

    On here,  by default, I am one of the biggest Iowa fans, that is true.  My point is I am really not near the level of "homer".  It's just that all the homers have basically left this site.  Hell, Vak is probably the biggest of an Iowa fan on here and he is from Florida...

    As far as my Iowa "bias' goes, it really isn't that strong.  If I had to say who I would cheer for first at each weight(excepting MSU wrestlers because they will always have 1st dibs), Iowa actually wouldn't have many, as my true "bias" goes homegrown MI wrestlers most of the time.  

    Here it goes:


    133- DeSanto

    141- Simon

    149-Storr/Parker tied

    157-I actually like a ton of guys here and they aren't from Iowa or MI.  Would probably go Deakin, Teemer, Lee then Carr.

    165-Marinelli, Valencia, Amine, and then Facundo will go near the top, even if he is PSU through and through.

    174-Kemerer, Labriola and Plott

    184-Amine, Hidlay, Keckeisen

    197-Dean(although switching to PSU made it harder), Warner, Norfleet

    285-Hillger, Stencel, Cass

    So, even though it would probably kill Iowa's chances at winning a title,  I would cheer for these guys over their Iowa opponent...

  12. 1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

    He is just busting your chops a little.  Lighten up Francis!!

    Certain things are so inaccurate they go past "chop busting".  I put in more work than a vast majority when it comes to my own program.  I think I earned the right to be a fan of another.

    Plus, I was really just trying to give him a hard time back by pushing the "did you actually go to that school" card.  I get a kick out of riling up the most diehard of PSU fans on here because they come off like PSU can do no wrong.  So, really, it isn't so much me "white knighting" for Iowa as I am "black knighting" on PSU!  And I have admitted that several times.

    Also, we have a very specific name for the kind of fan I was referring to, since it is PREVALENT here in Michigan.  It is the "Walmart" Wolverine.  So, I was just pushing to see if he was a "Walmart" Nittany Lion!

  13. 22 hours ago, PSUSMC said:

    you go out of your way to white knight for Iowa.

    JFC, you're a Michigan Stater not a Hawk, have some dignity!

    This is so comically untrue.  If you go over to HR you would see I am barely even considered an Iowa fan at all.  You guys just get upset more so because I don't slobber all over everything that PSU does and don't let many of you run all over Iowa in the process. 

    Also, if you actually paid attention, I have repeatedly said I will always root for MSU first and foremost but, they will NEVER be truly relevant in the national scene.  As such, I started to look elsewhere and that branching off actually started  with VTech, because of Metcalf and Brands and then that followed them to Iowa.  

    FInally, did you actually attend PSU?  Because I didn't just choose to be an MSU fan. I went through the entire MSU process from the beginning, ie. school, practice, competition, travel, graduation, alumni help, donations and all of that while growing more sour with Minkel by the moment.  Inevitably that lack of relationship along with the way he ran the program into the ground, along with the Athletic Department not caring as it happened inevitably caused me to look elsewhere for DI level enjoyment.

    So, when you call out my "dignity" you have NO F'ING CLUE" what you are talking about...

  14. 1 minute ago, BAC said:

    There's a big difference between not penalizing someone for being injured, and granting them phantom wins on account of injury.  You're doing the latter.  You're handing him win after win in the consy bracket that he didn't actually earn, including over the 3rd place finisher, to grant him the higher ranking.  That's nuts.

    Its also terrible for wrestling.  If you're a coach of a highly-ranked guy, why not just have him default out of big matches, instead of risking a loss?  After all they'll just treat the default/MFF as a win since that's "where the data points" and hand him a high seed/ranking as a result.  Why earn that which will be just handed to you?

    This practice of treating recent MFFs/injury default losses as phantom wins, and bootstrapping them with results from 2+ seasons ago, cuts both ways too.  Why should Marinelli be ahead of Mekhi Lewis, as Lewis' only losses since 2019 (when he won NCAAs, defeating Marinelli en route), have been injury defaults/ MFFs?  Valencia is 1-0 against Marinelli and AA'd last season while Marinelli DNP'd (and Valencia's NCAA losses were, as you say, while he was hurt), so shouldn't Valencia be higher?  And Wick has just as good a claim to a phantom 3rd place win as Marinelli last year, as both were injured and Wick, despite losses to Marinelli, is 1-0 against him in NCAAs with a near-tech.

    I am not granting him ANY phantom wins.  I simply pointed out that he HAS wins over the 3 wrestlers he would have had to beat to get to O'Toole.

    As far as your default argument goes, it is so ridiculous it falls flat on its face.  In NO WORLD would a Head Coach have his wrestler default out of NCAA's to hope for a better ranking to start next season.  The entire point is for him to get points in THAT tournament.

  15. 26 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

    You can't give him those wins because he would have been wrestling them injured.  That is what I don't get.  He was actually injured and would have been extremely hampered in the most difficult part of the most difficult bracket of the season.


    18 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

    I am the other way.  I think the Bull does deserve the #1 spot.  I just think using MFF as a reasoning to do it is lame AF.  He would have lost again.  It is not only his nature but he was actually seriously injured.  He would not have finished above O'Toole like that.  No handed and rib-punctured lung?  Yeah.  Give me O'Toole 10 out of 10 there.

    But, it isn't fair or right to rank based on injured performances, let alone extrapolating how the wrestler would perform after those injuries.  Even then, you have examples like Ed Ruth getting slaughtered by Amuch, but then wrecking Henrich and Lewnes after.  

    Now, I am not saying you ignore losses, but every ranker is rightly going to weigh those losses based on contributing factors.

  16. 38 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

    you don't have any data to say he would lose, but you can't just give him those wins again. that's a gauntlet.

    you also didn't have any data that said he'd lose to Griffith or Mekhi. and both happened. in fact, the data said he'd win those bouts. 

    Assuming you were replying to me, I didn't mean to equate them to wins, but simply not count them as losses.  That is further bolstered by the very specific data points you clearly missed in your comparison.  Marinelli was UNDEFEATED with wins against the 3 I named.  Meanwhile there actually isn't any real data to say he would beat Griffith or Mekhi, because he had never wrestled either.  That is quite a bit of a KEY difference, don't you think?

  17. 6 minutes ago, Class said:

    Marinelli has just one loss due to FFT out of the backside where his most difficult matches of the season were set to occur.  O'Toole however wrestled through the gauntlet that is the NCAA wrestle-backs.  If that is lower on the tiebreaker scale than a longer career w/matches pulling in data from 24 months ago + that is wrong.

    But, you are assuming that Alex loses any of those matches if he didn't get hurt.  Injuries play a big part in rankings and it is ONLY FAIR to not penalize a guy for taking that severe of an injury while losing an OT match to the eventual Champ.  Also, let's not forget that Alex has a win over Wittlake(took 4th), the year prior and beat Smith(took 5th) and Amine(took 7th) at B1Gs less than 2 weeks prior.  Looking at the brackets he would have needed to beat Amine then Smith then Wittlake to wrestle O'Toole for 3rd.  You just don't have ANY data saying he loses those matches, while you have significant data saying he wins them...

  18. 8 minutes ago, BAC said:

    I'm OK with not looking to freestyle (if you are consistent about it).  And I can see why NCAA placement isn't the final arbiter of rankings in very narrow circumstances -- e.g. a 2nd and 3rd place finisher who both lost to the same guy, or the example you give, where it may be a wash.  But what I can NOT see is treating not showing up at NCAAs (or a MFF loss) as the same thing as getting a win.  That's what you're doing when you treat a 3rd place finish as the same as a DNP after defaulting out following a loss.  You're looking at the two scenarios and saying, "well, they both lost only once," even though one didn't lose more than once only because he stopped wrestling altogether, while the other guy powered thru the consy bracket with win after win. 

    If you're not weighting actual wins at NCAA higher than a failure to compete (or a MFF loss), then there's a flaw with the ranking system. And not just the NCAAs:  Marinelli had what, all of 2 wins before last year's post-season?  I mean, by that logic, Evan Wick should be ranked #1 because he has 0 losses over the past two seasons, compared to 1 each for O'Toole and Marinelli.

    I also disagree that their wins last year are comparable (as O'Toole's tech of Valencia and win over Wittlake is more impressive than anything Marinelli did).  Marinelli's wins (and losses) from over 2 years ago, when O'Toole wasn't competing, don't strike me as relevant to the comparison, at least not for ranking purposes.  I also don't agree that length of career is a fair tiebreaker, where O'Toole's AA finish after 1 season is better than anything Marinelli achieved in 4 seasons. 

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting you're biased and I do appreciate the effort at consistency.  There's a lot to like about both wrestlers.  I'm no Iowa fan but I admit I have a soft spot for guys who have battled through adversity as Marinelli has.  But I think O'Toole has earned the right to be ranked ahead of him for now.

    Although I actually agree with JH's reasoning on Marinelli being the #1, I actually want O"Toole to be the #1.  The #1 seed has NOT been kind to Alex.  I will happily jump on the O'Toole is #1 train!

    Also, Alex beat the 5th and 7th place finishers that season so they actually ARE comparable to wins over a significantly injured Valencia and Wittlake(whom he also has a win over from the year prior)...

  19. 7 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

    It's this

    Pool A     Pool C
    Iowa     Penn State
    Lehigh     Cornell
    C. Mich     N. Iowa
    Pool B     Pool D
    Missouri     ASU
    NC State     Tech
    Oregon St.     Hofstra


    Winner of A wrestles winner of B

    Winner of C wrestles winner of D

    Marinelli and O'Toole can hit. Neither can wrestle Valencia or Ramirez. We could see Hayden Hidlay vs Kemerer, should NC State win, but neither can see Brooks. But Brooks-Keckeisen seems like a sure bet.


    I was thoroughly impressed with Keckeisen at NCAA's last season.  He wrestles so hard and for every second.  As much as I like Hidlay, I didn't come away from that tournament positive that Hidlay was better.  I know Brooks beat him then, but he will need to bring his A game every time against Parker.  I hope that match happens.

  20. 1 hour ago, ionel said:

    Pretty sure thats an easy yes.

    true fr K Brock pinned defending champ his first match as a starter, pretty sure he was not ranked.  Said defending champ did not do as well that year but think he was prob #1 at the time cause early season.

    darn it, nom beat me i typed too much info :(

    It’s pretty hard to do as well if you don’t win it again, but he was still REALLY good(25-3-his other 2 losses were to Garrett and he wrecked everyone else at NCAA’s), taking 3rd. He just ran into a buzzsaw in Nashon Garret, who had one of the most impressive single season I can remember. 

    for reference:  https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/12037/brewer-cody/profile


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