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Posts posted by straggler

  1. The perennial issue with this style of wrestling is that the scoring criteria can be very subjective. In a match between well matched opponents, whether an official is prone to put one of the competitors on the shot clock or how a 50/50 call is made will determine the match. I always go back to it, but did Burroughs deserve 4 points on a throw that Dake initiated some years back? Or 4 points late in the second match at the most recent trials which he was awarded on a takedown? Maybe, maybe not.Did Chamizo score 4 here? Beats me. Bottom line is he got it.  

  2. How many guys does Dake have to beat before we at least give him the benefit of the doubt? At 74 kg he lost to Burroughs in a series of  increasingly competitive matches and at 79 kg he has lost to Gadzhimagomedov. As I pointed out during all the Dieringer talk Dake was 4-0 against him. That didn't mean Ringer was not competitive or that he had no shot, but there was no reason to pick Ringer over him in the best out of 3. Then Valencia beats Ringer and all of the sudden people start picking him even though the style matchup is not in his favor and Dake is simply very good. A 2-0 sweep is a 2-0 sweep.


    As to Valencia, I am sort of getting the same vibe I got with Cox. We will see.  

  3. Well the main problem Dake has faced is some guy named Jordan Burroughs. With the exception of Snyder no one else was making the team if Burroughs was the incumbent they had to unseat. If people think Valencia has a shot, fine. That's why they wrestle the matches. But it seems every guy Dake faces is supposedly the future. 

  4. He screamed "How about a little passivity?!" after the buzzer.

    He's just being a crybaby. :) but it's ok cuz he feel short of his dream.

    Given how many "crybabies" there are in this sport, is it possible that the problem lies in the sport itself? Can you imagine combining the subjectivity and arbitrariness of free style scoring and officiating with the old format? I don't blame Taylor or anyone else for getting upset.  


    Anyway there will be much less excuses this time. Thankfully. :) 

  5. He was placed on the clock due to being passive. But it does make a good excuse (never ending)for him losing.

    In a match where it was two push outs for Dake to Burrough's one, Dake was passive? Ok. It hardly takes a conspiracy to argue that if you implement a selection process that is fundamentally unfair to protect the incumbent, that this creates a level of official favoritism that will leak into everything. One bad Olympics did not suddenly cure the problem, especially given the stakes. 

  6. Technically the rules did not impose a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger. They present an incumbent with an advantage, which must be earned.


    And plenty of sports provide physical advantages to competitors based on qualifying events. Track athletes with better qualifying events get the better lanes to race in. Same with swimmers. I'm pretty sure cyclists and race car drivers also get more advantageous starting positions based on qualifying events as well.

    I think a better analogy is have the challengers run two or three extra races and then meet in the finals that same day. I don't have a big problem with some earned advantages. But there are lines that are getting crossed. 

  7. It's amazing that everyone who complains about the selection process regarding Dake and Burroughs can't help but be talking mostly about bad calls by the end of the rant.  It exposes the argument as more about who won as opposed to how.  Not to mention Burroughs failed to medal in the Olympics, thus had no advantage in 2017, and then still won the spot with no advantage in 2017.  


    So 2017 was completely fair competition and you still whine about it.  Obviously any Dake loss will result in whining from some corners.  

    Unfortunately they are connected. If you are going to go to extraordinary lengths to protect a roster spot that is likely going to have consequences on how a match is called. When Dake gets placed on the shot clock 2 (or was it 3) times at the US Open and then gets placed on the shot clock late in the 2nd match at the trials, is that coincidence or is the incumbent getting the extra benefit of the doubt? I complained about it. true enough. But I also gave Burroughs his due.    

  8. Dake was a whiner about the old process.  He is a whiner in general even when he is whining for the right reason.  I say that as a guy who has never rooted against him in a match at any level. 


    The old process was designed to win the most possible medals rather than to be fair.  I am a huge Dake fan and I rooted for him to unseat JB, but I'd rather have a maybe medalist stuck behind a medalist than a no chance for a medalist beat out a medalist domestically because he can game plan for him.  

    Oh please. The old process was complete and utter garbage. I have asked for years for someone, anyone to come up with something comparable where an athletic selection process involves imposing a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger and no one has come up with anything yet. It is unprecedented. And as you admit the whole point is favoritism and spot protection, which in the highly subjective world of freestyle wrestling is toxic. (Taylor getting overtly upset after the Cox match is another example). Some of the calls that have gone against Dake when he has competed with Burroughs have been very interesting to say the least, especially the way he is constantly placed on the shot clock, as is what Burroughs has been able to get away with. I'd rather just have a fair competition. At the end of the day that's the system we have, but I blame nobody for complaining about it.  

  9. My biggest peeve with this recent "Dake Fans dissing on Ringer" is... they refuse to accept Ringer has gotten closer literally every-time.

    They keep saying Dake is 4-0 against him, Ringer has no chance to win. 

    Instead of: Dake is 4-0 against him and their last 2 matches went 2-1 and 5-5 ,Dake has come out on top so far but there is little room for error. 

    You can be a fan of somebody and give credit to others at the same time.  

    The last two times Taylor and Dake wrestled were close affairs.


    No one is dissing Dieringer and I clearly did not say he had no chance. But the idea that Dake will lose the next time out is a well established tradition of him losing every fantasy matchup you guys can think up. And it is not like Dieringer is fresh out of college. His red shirt senior season was 2015/16. He is one of the best in the world at this weight according to the rankings. But he remains 0-4 against Dake, and I do not see him winning the best of 3, especially in that the learning curve works both ways. 

  10. thats all?  I thought it would be two compound leg fractures this time.

    Luckily not. He has been injury prone. Did not see anything in the post interview so the talk of a thumb injury may be nonsense also. 


    Anyway Dake is 4-0 against Dieringer, so he is certain to lose next time like he always was destined to lose to Taylor. 

  11. Love Taylor's style! Too bad we can't see this USA team vs. Russia's no.1 team. It'd be an amazing dual. JB looks smaller than usual.


    tbert, Dake ain't beating Gadji, not this year or any other year. He got handled.

    No question Dake wrestled poorly against Gadji. That first take down was completely passive as he did not do any hand fighting and let his opponent control the tie. After that he went for a throw and that was that. Hopefully he learned something. I'm a big fan but Dake sometimes comes out very passive or distracted.  

  12. Dake was soundly beaten in the finals but it isn't a result he cannot reverse the next time. The thing I noticed is that he allowed his opponent to control the ties. The guy had his hand on both of Kyle's shoulders throughout the match while Kyle had his hands inside, almost in a shell. He wasn't contesting the ties and that led directly to the first take down. The second and third takedown were more of the same, letting his opponent get his hands on his shoulders or upper arms, although the second was also a result of Kyle going for a high risk move. You are not going to defeat opponents at this level if you don't hand fight and contest the tie ups. In these tournaments you are up against one experienced, accomplished opponent after another. Get off on the wrong foot and you lose. 


    That said it is a good experience.

  13. Too early to reach any conclusions. The guy he just fought accumulated his record against tomatoe cans and was submitted by the only decent opponent he faced before the Pico fight. Which is completely fine. It is called bringing a prospect along slowly. The guy Pico lost to was not a world beater himself, losing his next fight, but he was a legitimate opponent. As the opponent level gets better, we will see.   

  14. This whole Dake/Burroughs discussion tends to go around in a circle. 


    Burroughs is a great champion, and part of his greatness is his mental toughness and his incredible desire to win. 


    But that does not mean that the qualifying system we have is completely fair. It is the only qualifying system I have ever heard of that imposes a direct physical disadvantage on the challenger. When the margins are razor thin, when you are trying to unseat a champion like Burroughs, that is quite a hill to climb. That is not an excuse, that is a fact. The facts are unfair. Now I have also stated that with Dake he has had a tendency to let it get to him. But realistically how could it not get to him?


    Because for me the natural consequence of a qualifying system that so emphasizes spot protection is that it effects the calls. Now a large part of that with Burroughs is that he is the champion. Like a champion boxer he is going to get the benefit; that's the way sports work. But part of that is the system itself. If you have qualifying where one side is being physically penalized, it is clear who the official favorite is. And that inevitably affects the calls down the line. The US Nationals match was a clear example imho. It is one thing to say "wrestle beyond the refs", but it is quite another when you have to do that against Burroughs. And Burroughs is smart. He knows he will get a lot of lattitude and he takes advantage. He knows he can get hands to the face. He knows Dake cannot take a backward step or the shot clock will immediately be imposed. 


    In the end that's the system. And it is presumptuous to ever bet against a multi-time champion like Burroughs under any circumstances. But all I am suggesting is that in Dake trying to unseat Burroughs the field in qualifying is titled and that it is as much a psychological grind as a physical one. So I get any frustration a competitor like Dake has ever expressed. It is unfair to discount Burroughs in any way. But then again questioning Dake's mental toughness is unfair too. He has had quite the mountain to climb. 

  15. Whines too much and was mentally beaten by JB to the point match three the result was a forgone conclusion. His mind game versus mere mortals.... off the charts, but he has shown he can get rattled and it costs him in matches. He has shown he can beat JB but if he doesn't win in two it is all but over.

    The problem with this is viewpoint is that it fails to recognize how absurd our qualifying system is currently. Guys like Dake are getting screwed, so they have a very legitimate reason to whine. And as much as I have praised JB's mental toughness, the field is always titled in his favor during qualifying and he does not hestitate to take full advantage because he knows he will get away with it. I guess that is being smart. So Dake has to endure a direct physical disadvantage, knows he will lose every 50/50 and probably 60/40 call, knows his opponent will be given a huge lattitude to put his hands in his eyes, knows that if he even thinks about taking a backward step he will be put on the clock while other guys get to flee all the way across the mat with no consequences, etc. The whole affair is a mental beating. But the third match was just physical exhaustion. 

  16. The Dake comparisons are absurd. If Yianni wins a national title this year, then people can start making them.


    People forget that Dake did not come out of high school as the golden boy. He lost in the NYS finals his junior year. It was in the post-season afterwards that he really began to hit his stride. So you are going to have a lot of wrestlers coming in with better high school credentials. But that does not mean they will be better college wrestlers, and Dake kept getting better and better.   

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