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Everything posted by straggler

  1. Different styles. Different scoring. Different everything.
  2. So Dake would rank below Cejudo? If Green win;s a world medal despite never making an NCAA final, would he rank below Green? Or maybe the styles are so different that the comparison is faulty, and maybe freestyle is so one -dimensional that it isn't the best indicator of comparative skill.
  3. That whole sequence would had landed Burroughs 2 points in folk. Then Dake immediate escapes. Dake then gets a takedown and rides Burroughs out for the rest of the period. Etc.
  4. This thread keeps going because people are being hypersensitive. I simply pointed out that I thought Dake is a better folkstyle wrestler. Because he was. Freestyle is one-dimensional and rewards one set of skills. What if freestyle instead emphasized mat wrestling and had no neutral position wrestling? Would that favor Burroughs given his skill set? Of course not. But instead freestyle hyperemphasizes the neutral position offense, eliminates much of the defense based on its exposure rules and rules regarding control as well as the push out rule, eliminates escape points and most of all eliminates mat wrestling. These were the things Dake dominated. That is why it is an apples and oranges comparison. Burroughs is perfectly suited for freestyle. Doesn't make him the greatest folkstyle wrestler.
  5. It is comparing different sports. Burroughs could win the next two gold medals and Dake still be superior in folkstyle.
  6. Different styles. Burroughs is perfectly suited for freestyle. Burroughs is very explosive and great in the neutral position. That is what freestyle values. It is comparatively one dimensional.
  7. Thought Taylor had more dominant years. But he lost to Dake too.
  8. How about the number of NCAA titles? Or the number of Hodge winner's they beat? Of the number of championships their finals opponents won? Or who red shirted and who didn't? Accuse me of hating Burrough's but I never said Dake was better than him in International wrestling. On the other hand all the goalpost moving on earth will not change the fact that Dake had a far superior college career. It would be like me saying that Dake is better in freestyle regardless of what Burroughs has accomplished.
  9. Sorry but Dake had a substantially more impressive folkstyle career than Burroughs. Is that even debatable? No. Did I say that Dake was better in freestyle? No again. The point is that these are very different styles with very different scoring criteria. You cannot substitute Burrough's international success for what he didn't accomplish in college anymore than judge Dake's international career by how many NCAA titles he won. .
  10. No agenda. It is just that rule differences, what counts as points and most especially the mat wrestling favor Dake overwhelmingly. To have a chance Burroughs would have to try to stay neutral but Burroughs would not be able to ride him, would get ridden (unless he pulled another whistle jump as in the Leen match), and Dake would have the chance to take him down himself. Dake is better in two of three positions in folk and can slow the match in nuetral down, especially without a push out. So 10/10.
  11. In folkstyle I would take Dake 10 out of 10. Don't see any way Burroughs could win even with the two and half year age advantage. In Greco I would take Dake 10 out of 10. But the Olympic style is freestyle.
  12. Not sure how representative the second 2015 match is. Being down 8-0 in the first few seconds of a match kind of alters the gameplan.
  13. That's the whole point. It was called correctly according to the rules. Dake's back was "exposed" only to the extent that he was in the process of throwing Burroughs who had no control whatsoever over Dake. Even Burroughs acknowledged that he benefited from a favorable call. So a wrestler gets 4 points where he did nothing to place the oponent on his back and had zero control. Exactly.
  14. You are certainly free to argue that folkstyle rules need changing as well. But it is missing or deflecting the point. Freestyle was almost thrown out of the Olympics. Hard to miss that serious changes needed to be made. What do I mean when I talk of the need for better rules? Take an example. In the first match between Dake and Burroughs this year Burroughs is driving him out of bounds. Dake then stops the momentum and attempts a throw. Burroughs tries to fight off the throw but has zero control and is not initiating the move. He is thrown. Dake is not exposed on his back at all. Burroughs has no control over what is occurring. Yet magically that became 4 points for Burroughs. How? The rule isn't logical. Misapplied or not, but folkstyle rules at least make sense. This did not. Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense and be more realistic to require a greater degree of control before scoring it as an exposure? But what about folkstyle is not a response. This was a stop rule that screwed up the match.
  15. In any sport there are going to be close calls and controversies. But in folkstyle the rules themselves seem pretty sound,although the variable way stalling is enforced drives me nuts. For example in their Southern Scuffle match was it an escape at the end or not? Close call, but the rule makes sense. My issue with freestyle is that the rules themselves are a problem, not just how they are applied. For example I think the back exposure rules need to be fixed.
  16. Maybe US fans are just more interested in the NCAAs. They saw Dake and Taylor on ESPN in the finals four years running. There has been no reason for US fans to embrace freestyle wrestling. And style-wise I find it very frustrating. Freestyle wrestling came thisclose to being thrown out of the Olympics. It became almost as unwatchable as Olympic boxing. I think the rule changes are a major step in the right direction, but I still find myself feeling short changed by these matches. For what it is worth, they need to continue tweaking the product. Create clear rules regarding exposure. Did anyone feel satisfied with the 4 points rewarded to Burroughs in the first match where he had no control, did not initiate the move and Dake had no back exposure? Love folkstyle or hate it, but you didn't need three judges subjectively interpreting everything and back points are back points. The same with the leg lace. If the back is exposed, fine, but if not there should not be points. When the viewer feels that the match was decided on the mat and not in the rule book or by the discretion of the officials, that will be progress. Also, dump the WTT format. I get that at the WCs you have to wrestle a series of hard matches, but one guy isn't resting all day waiting for you in the finals.
  17. The only rule I ever saw is that you get a caution if you start too quickly. Strangely I started thinking of a traditional song. Something like: Jordan Burroughs is the best, but he shot before the whistle. Jordan Burroughs gold medalist, but he shot before the whistle, Jordan Burroughs can't be beat, but he shot before the whistle, Jordan Burroughs left his feet and shot before the whistle, He shot, he shot, he shot, he shot, he shot before the whistle, He shot, he shot, he shot, he shot, he shot beforeeeee the whistle. That's the signal for me to bail out. Now I'm just going to enjoy the WC.
  18. Not that fast. He fooled the ref but not the clock. If you get away with it it is a veteran move. I guess.
  19. I think it was an intentional effort to anticipate the whistle. He was already in motion before the whistle. He clearly was not reacting to the whistle. He already had his ankle at 5:33 and the whistle sounded at 5:34. Everything is happening so fast there is no way a ref is going to be able to catch it. (His early jump in the Leen match was as blatant as you can get and the ref didn't call it because there was just enough shadow of a doubt).Everyone wants to say this is sour grapes but we saw a competitor in the WTT finals shot before the whistle and have an 8-0 lead before anyone blinked. It was a matter of split seconds (he shook Dake's hand, shot and caught the ankle all in the space of 5:33), but it is a big difference because it was an attempt to catch an opponent before he is set. Whether intended or just mistimed it happened. Should Dake have been ready for anything, etc? In hindsight absolutely.
  20. When other wrestlers engage in questionable tactics or show questionable sportsmanship they get criticized. Burroughs is no exception. This is not exactly a Class A felony. It was shooting just before the whistle.It worked.
  21. There is a fine line between getting the quickest jump on the whistle and shooting before the whistle even blows. And you are absolutely right. A ref will never call it if you don't make it completely blatant.
  22. It is a legitimate criticism and as a fan it deprived us of a more competitive match.
  23. It was smart.He planned to time his shot to anticipate the whistle. But smart or not it was jumping the gun. Should Dake have been ready anyway? I think most competitors don't anticipate an opponent shooting before the whistle. But it worked.Lessons learned I guess.
  24. No. I am an agent for the Putin government tasked with demoralizing American wrestling fans.
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