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Everything posted by straggler

  1. I think a problem with stalling is that it can actually create passivity because attempting to induce a stalling call becomes a substitute for being active. A guy gets the lead. At that point his opponent should have the burden of bringing the action. But instead a style seems to have developed in some matches I've seen where the trailing wrestler will try to provoke a stall call without shooting. He will step forward, push the opponent, but won't make any offensive move. Outside of obvious fleeing that should not induce a stalling call. It should be either take a shot or forget about provoking a stalling call.
  2. It's a nice win but calling it historic is a bit exaggerated. One champion beat another. Dake over Taylor was a lot more impressive. Then again, if Maple wins another title it might gain more significance.
  3. I remember Jon Jones when he was a NY high school state wrestling champ. Jones is just a better athlete and he has great quickness and reach. And he has also really picked up all the techniques. The thing is, when he gets the opening its lights out. I also remember Weidman wrestling at Hofstra. Jenkins gassed as badly as I've ever seen. It does remind me of the criticism he got in college.
  4. Not a huge MMA fan but I watched it. Bubba doesn't seem explosive. He had openings in the first round but wasn't active. Some of that is lack of experience. But he also seemed passive. Then he gassed completely.
  5. Let's first see if Dake can close the gap. We've seen two matches, one a tech under the current scoring system and one a much closer match. Personally I think Dake would beat Burroughs in folkstyle and greco, but so far no one has beaten Burroughs in freestyle and that's what matters.
  6. This is another post-championship interview. He mentions that they were able to keep the injury a secret except for message board speculation:
  7. Based on the articles I've seen and reading the Secret Race, this is just not the case. I'm not sure about Ullrich, but there were only a handful of people like Armstrong who had access to the best sports scientists, like Michele Ferrari, who was the best in the business. Other people used the same drugs, but not with the same precision. Respectfully that's hyperbole. Many riders had access to Ferrari (I had forgotten about Rominger for example), who once was directly involved in running specific teams. They also had access to Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes, including Ulrich, who once supervised the Once and Kelme teams. They also had access to Dr. Francesco Conconi, such as Patani. The idea that Armstrong did something "different" is just part of the attempt to make him stand out. He just doesn't, which is the unfortunate part. Armstrong participated in a very well established doping culture.
  8. Armstrong threw his weight around in a variety of ways, many of which have been brought up in this thread. He was (is) a supreme competitor and a highly effective manipulator. He accomplished greatness in several fields --- athletic achievement, fundraising for charity, self promotion. Many of his tactics weren't nice. Saying that everyone has told a lie and that therefore we should not condemn someone for lying is like saying that someone who robs a convenience store has committed the same crime that Bernie Madoff committed. Not all lies are created equal. Cycling was dirty, so everyone doped and everyone lied about it. But Lance was on his own level -- he doped in a more sophisticated manner, he lied better -- he did everything better than his peers. And he certainly attempted to intimidate everyone around him into silence -- and had the money in his pockets to do so for many years. His lies were not garden variety lies. He affected people's retirements. Actually Armstrong didn't do anything more sophisticated in doping than all the other competitors. That is just USADA nonsense. They needed to make Armstrong seem worse than the others for their own publicity. But the reality is that he did nothing more than what guys like Ulrich were doing. Armstrong did not have the magic EPO.
  9. I do not have the slightest problem with Armstrong doping. By the early 90's EPO had become epidemic and you could not compete without it. Indurain. Zulle. Pantani. Riis. Ulrich. The Festina affair. And on and on. Look up videos of some of the mountain stages from the 90s. Lemond said that by the early 90s he had trouble keeping up with the main group of riders. You either doped or you could not compete. And what is different today? Contador is still allowed to compete despite the Spanish authorities making a mockery of the anti-doping regime. Valverde also. It just seems that rather than critics and hardcore fans addressing with the doping culture in cycling seriously (before EPO there was blood doping and steroids) Armstrong has become the scapegoat for the whole issue. As a example Contador is still a hero on cycling forums. And Indurain beating confirmed dopers is not seen as proof of his own guilt, but is delusionally seen as a testament to his supposed superhuman ability. As to Armstrong being a bad person, the whole sport was based on a house of cards. The people that attack him participated in doping, benefited from it, and were not looking to clean up the sport, only to get Armstrong. How Landis became a hero in all this is remarkable. There was a lot of hypocrisy and petty resentment. If a sport is based on a doping culture then it is based on the suppression of secrets.
  10. I agree that you cannot make any assumptions about how a wrestler will perform in international competition based on college results. But I also think that the styles and rules between folkstyle and freestyle are divergent enough that it is tough to draw conclusions in either direction. Even with the fact that internationally the pool of talent should be deeper, it's very hard to say how any of the top international wrestlers would fare under college rules. Burroughs is the top freestyler right now, but would he have been able to beat Dake in a college match? Would Tsargush (recognizing that he got a turn) necessarily beat Taylor in folk? How many of the guys that beat Ruth in freestyle would beat him in folkstyle? Maybe the international wrestlers are that good or maybe it's just hard to predict how college success will carry over in a different style. From what I've seen Taylor has been a terrific college wrestler who may or may not succeed internationally.
  11. The problem in comparing is that freestyle and folkstyle are very different. In freestyle you have no mat wrestling, no escape points, the push out which would prevent wrestling the edges, no riding time, and even control for a take down is less. Burroughs skills and style are perfectly suited for freestyle. He is explosive and has the ability to take opponents down. It''s purely hypothetical but I think Dake beats a same age Burroughs in a folkstyle match. Burroughs could be ridden and Burroughs would have trouble keeping Dake on the mat. And under folkstyle rules Dake could slow him down in neutral and potentially score. It's just hard to pick against a guy who has the edge in two out of three positions. Now freestyle is a different ball game. No one has defeated Burroughs and he may never lose.
  12. Burroughs is two years older and Dake is still developing. But I think the biggest issue is physical. Burroughs and Howe still seem bigger, which is a function of their relative ages and the weigh-in rules which translate into a weight advantage. At the same age and weight in a folkstyle match I think Dake would ride Burroughs into the floor, recognizing that Burroughs won two NCAA titles. In freestyle, where riding is not a factor, it maybe that like Smith, Burroughs has an unstoppable go to move. Will be interesting to see it play out.
  13. Dake does have five straight wins against Taylor. Taylor is a very talented wrestler and is always capable of winning. (Although the final score in the NCAA final should have been 5-2). Speaking of Taylor, in 2012 he got beat by Howe badly. This time out he teched him. As to Dake, he lost to Marable, then beat him twice. He lost to Paulson then beat him soundly. He lost a very close match against Howe but beat him here. He got teched by Burroughs in the first match and then legitimately pushed him the second match. Dake may never beat Burroughs, who is the world and Olympic champion after all. But as he gets more familiar with the style and physically matures it's not unreasonable to project Dake giving Burroughs a tough challenge in the future. But who can tell.
  14. My final take is that Dake has the physical tools to compete with Burroughs. The issue for me was always whether Burroughs was just too explosive.
  15. I'm not a fan of this format. The advantage should be that the top seed gets a bye to the final. It should not be the physical advantage of also competing against a fatigued challenger.
  16. Confidence never hurts. My take is that he came off three matches, including a marathon with Howe, and that you cannot be half a step slow against Burroughs.
  17. I agree. Dake has to go through a tough bracket just to get to Borroughs immediately thereafter. Wrestling JB is tough enough already.
  18. Borroughs has to be the favorite until he loses. Which may be never.
  19. Winning four in a row against a guy is pretty convincing. Dake beat Taylor in preseason, early season, mid season and for all the marbles. I think Taylor is a great wrestler but you can only go by results.
  20. straggler


    Congratulations to Dake. I was just reading an intermat profile of Dake when he was an incoming freshman at Cornell. Loved watching him wrestle. He had a great high school career (junior world team, etc), but he didn't start wrestling year round until 10th grade. He took loses here and there but kept improving. Maybe this doesn't make any sense, but I always thought that the fact that he wasn't a four time state champion, that he was a relative late bloomer in the sense that he really seemed to come into his own after his junior high school season (he lost to Paddock as a junior in the state finals), helped contribute to his college accomplishments. He just had terrific mental toughness. Well deserved.
  21. I think this list involves a bit of creative accounting. I don't think it's valid to incorporate freestyle and greco results. (Do Vering's subsequent Greco-Roman results really factor into folkstyle results while in college?). At the very least this is very premature. Let's see how Dake's competitors do internationally first. Also, when you list national champions that Cael defeated, it gets a bit questionable. Take Hahn. He was 5th at 184 in 2001 and 5th again at 184 in 2002 when Cael had moved up to 197. No doubt a quality wrestler at that time but beating him in 2001 and 2002 wasn't incredibly notable. In 2003 and 2004 he went on to be national champion at 197, but that's after the fact. It doesn't seem equivalent to beating a Molinaro or St. John in the finals and then their coming back the next year and winning it all. The same point can be made about Vering. In 1999 he was 4th at 184 and was majored by Jones 14-2. In 2000 he won at 197 while Cael was at 184. In 2001 he ended up 7th at 197. He eventually became a national champion but in 1999 he was 4th best at his weight.
  22. Dake didn't wrestler Howe at the trials. They wrestled freestyle a year earlier right after Dake won at 149. It went to the dreaded ball drop in the third period, which is 50/50.
  23. Dake has defeated Taylor because he is a better wrestler. Taylor even got help from the ref this time around with the ridiculous stall call and probably on the 1st period reversal being ruled an escape, and he still lost. Any supposed lack of mental toughness has nothing to do with it. Taylor is an incredibly dominant wrestler. Outside of Dake he outclassed the entire field and is not going to be challenged next year. Also rather than criticizing Taylor's alleged lack of mental toughness (which I think is a completely bogus criticism), something should rather be said for Dake's mental toughness. Winning matches like the semifinal match against Humphrey his true freshman year says it all.
  24. I think so but it's a matter of endless debate. His true freshman year he beat Humphrey, a returning senior finalist. He beat Marion, a two time finalist. He beat three wrestlers who won national titles (Molinaro, St. John and obviously Taylor). Taylor absolutely steamrolled the competition and Dake beat him three straight times in folkstyle counting the Allstar match.
  25. I thought Dake modified his riding style. No risky mat returns. And no attempt at a leg-in ride, which Taylor defends perfectly.
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