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rpm002

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Posts posted by rpm002


  1. 7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    when you take into understanding that his role and duties involve the development of the age group program “elite accelerator” and that his roles and duties have absolutely nothing to do with the administration and operation of national events, I think it makes it hard to come to that interpretation. If you want to bank on the fact he’s a USAW employee, you have to take into account what his duties are, and what departments he is in and/or responsible for. 

    That's definitely fair... I don't know if there is any administrative component to KJ's duties or not. 

    My sincere thanks for the thoughtful reply.  A rare glimmer of rationality in what is mostly an abomination of a message board thread! :)


  2. 32 minutes ago, drag it said:

    As I said above several times, I doubt the facts are that KJ's duties at USAW had anything to do with supervising weigh in.  It wasn't his job to tell people on behalf of USAW when weigh-in was.  It was Mr. Jones,  or whoever the person is, who communicated it to competitors and coaches.  KJ was the coach for Cox in that situation, not the USAW weigh in administrator. Mr. Jones told every competitor the correct time; KJ told the one guy he coached the wrong time, even though probably Mr.Jones told the right time to both KJ and Cox.  

    The language you quoted was "apparent authority to do the things ordinarily entrusted to one occupying such a position."  KJ wasn't entrusted with administering weigh ins.  He was entrusted with telling Cox how to hit a double leg, how to lift weights, etc.

    That is a fair critique and will probably be the other side of the argument in arbitration.  Is it reasonable to infer that a statement that the "National Freestyle Development Coach" gives about weigh-ins for the biggest national freestyle wrestling event in the last several years is correct? I still would lean towards yes, but I agree that's not the only possible interpretation.


  3. Someone on Twitter made a great point that will surely come up in arbitration regarding the Law of Agency.

    Quote

    "...where one person appoints a person to a position which carries with it agency-like powers, those who know of the appointment are entitled to assume that there is apparent authority to do the things ordinarily entrusted to one occupying such a position. If a principal creates the impression that an agent is authorized but there is no actual authority, third parties are protected so long as they have acted reasonably."

    So if you understand the relevant legal principles in play here, Cox's argument makes itself:

    1) USA Wrestling appointed Kevin Jackson as its National Freestyle Development Coach.  He reports directly to Zadick.  In the press release from his hiring, KJ is quoted as saying: "I have spoken with Bill about his vision for USA Wrestling and what he sees as my role in that. We can communicate at the highest of levels." (I seriously could not have invented that quote if I tried!)

    2) By virtue of USA Wrestling making this appointment, Kevin Jackson becomes a principal in the eyes of the law and has agency to communicate on behalf of USA Wrestling.

    3) J'Den Cox knew that Kevin Jackson was appointed to this position.

    4) Therefore, per the last sentence above, even if Kevin Jackson doesn't have the authority to change weigh-in times, if he tells a wrestler that they have until 8:30 to weigh-in, Cox is protected so long as he acts reasonably and consistently with what he was told.  All of his actions (including the fact that he successfully weighed in prior to the time he was told) suggest that he did that.  

    Given the above, I think there is a better chance than most are suggesting that an arbitrator will find that the proper resolution to this matter is one that gives J'Den some opportunity to make the Olympic team.  I'm not sure what that looks like, but the law certainly seems to be on his side.


  4. 5 minutes ago, BobDole said:

    According to Willie in his intermat article, J'den checked weight on multiple scales just before 8am and was still a little bit over. To me that indicates that someone prompted him to weigh-in since weigh-ins were closing. The thing that gets me is that he was in the weigh-in/workout area and had to have seen guys making weight and recovering. At that point you ask your coach, what time weigh-ins are if you originally thought they were from 8-8:30am.

    Yes, I'm saying my post was true from 7:20 to, say, 7:50.  At that point, he figured out or was told that 8AM was the deadline, but it was too late and couldn't cut enough to make it at that point.

    I think your last 2 sentences are an example of "hindsight bias".  My guess is he thought that everyone else was making weight and recovering because 8AM was the deadline for those wrestling at 10AM, but 8:30AM (the time he specifically was told, which was different because he was not wrestling in the 10AM session) was his deadline, so he was OK? 

    Now that all of this happened, it is very easy to say "it should have been obvious!  how could he not realize sooner!  he was right there!" but given his unique situation of having a bye from the 1st session, I think it would have been very easy to filter everything he saw through the lens of "they have to rush, I have a bye and a later weigh-in time, I'm good" until he was specifically told otherwise, but then it was too late.


  5. 3 minutes ago, matts1w said:

    He did make weight...no one disputes that.  He missed the cutoff time by about 15 minutes.  His camp claims that was an honest mistake; either that is true or a lie.  Any talk of what is truth here is just purely speculation.  No matter, that should be dealt with "in-house."  He should have been allowed to wrestle off, and the consequences of his discretion confronted by USA Wrestling and determined later.  Instead, they created a freakin' mess.

    Mostly agree with this.  Only quibble is from everything that is known about J'Den and about the timeline of events, there is zero reason to think it was a lie and every reason to think it was an honest mistake, as there is no motive here, and no advantage gained.  But the fact that is true makes the actions of USA Wrestling even worse.


  6. 58 minutes ago, BobDole said:

    The scan of him going into the weigh-in room/workout room was at 7:21am. That means the first thing he did was go check his weight to see what he needed to make weight. That is perfectly normal.

    Now, showing up to the arena at 7:21am means one of two things. The first is he thought he was on weight and good to go or that he thought weigh-ins were a little later so he'd have time to shed the needed weight. However, if it is the latter he should have realized pretty quickly that these were the OFFICIAL weigh-ins and question the timing there. This isn't his first time weighing in and he should have figured it out pretty quickly.

    (reposted from another thread since it is relevant here as well)

    Most wrestlers were wrestling in the first session, which started at 10 and knew the deadline was 2 hours before weigh-ins.  Cox was not wrestling in that session so may have had no idea when it started, since it wasn't relevant to him, so that was a key reference point he may not have had.  Or perhaps, he did know wrestling started at 10, and since he was told he had to make weight by 8:30 or 9, he just figured the best thing to do was to go weigh in shortly after 8 when most of the other wrestlers would have left and it wouldn't be so crowded.  

    I suspect you are correct that at some point in this timeline, he saw cues to indicate that other wrestlers needed to weigh in by 8, but given he had a specific later time he was told and also had a bye from the first session (and therefore had reason to believe that the times relevant to others do not apply to him), I can definitely see how he could have filtered what he saw to think others needed to hustle and weigh-in by 8, but he was OK as long as he weighed in by the deadline he believed was in place when he arrived.


  7. 8 hours ago, drag it said:

     

    For instance, was he the only one working out, which might suggest that his concept of time was off?  Or were there others working out who rushed off, which might suggest there was a hurry?  Did he not see or hear the hundred something competitors lining up somewhere else?  Did he not encounter one other wrestler pounding a Gatorade because they had just made weight -- before 8:00, which he thought was the EARLIEST you could weigh in?

    Obviously I don't know the layout of the facility, what room he was in, and where the weigh-in scales were, etc., but it seems really weird that he didn't see or hear anything after getting there at 7:21, well in advance, that clued him in that he was approaching this differently than every one of the scores of other competitors in what sounds like the same building and the same restricted space.

    Most wrestlers were wrestling in the first session, which started at 10 and knew the deadline was 2 hours before weigh-ins.  Cox was not wrestling in that session so may have had no idea when it started, since it wasn't relevant to him, so that was a key reference point he may not have had.  Or perhaps, he did know wrestling started at 10, and since he was told he had to make weight by 8:30 or 9, he just figured the best thing to do was to go weigh in shortly after 8 when most of the other wrestlers would have left and it wouldn't be so crowded.  

    I suspect you are correct that at some point in this timeline, he saw cues to indicate that other wrestlers needed to weigh in by 8, but given he had a specific later time he was told and also had a bye from the first session (and therefore had reason to believe that the times relevant to others do not apply to him), I can definitely see how he could have filtered what he saw to think others needed to hustle and weigh-in by 8, but he was OK as long as he weighed in by the deadline he believed was in place when he arrived.

     


  8. 2 hours ago, The Genius said:

    even if you don't think DT can beat Yazdani again to win gold, thinking he'll come 5th in possibly the weakest weight category is pretty bold. Outside of Yazdani and Naifonov I don't see anyone at 86kg that can even come close to beating DT.

    Taylor just doesn't look as explosive to me, but we'll see.... also, I think many are making the assumption we will get fair or favorable refereeing in Tokyo.  I'm assuming the opposite.


  9. Reposting from another thread:

     

    My solution: Cox is awarded a special wrestle-off with Snyder with terms as follows:  If Cox wins 3 consecutive matches against Snyder, he takes Snyder's spot on the Olympic team.  If Snyder wins any 1 of the 3 matches, Snyder keeps his spot and Cox returns to his present situation (not an Olympic team member or alternate).  Aside from potentially losing their status as 1st/2nd Olympic alternate if Cox wins, no compensation, etc is changed for Moore or Gadson regardless of what happens. Also USA Wrestling employees can never be the primary coach for a wrestler going forward.

    This is imperfect, but the best possible option.  Cox is in a worse position vs if this never happened (as he should be) because he has to win all 3 matches, not 2 of 3 and may not be on the world team at all.  But if there is evidence to support the assertion that he is in this position because he trusted in good faith what a USA Wrestling employee was telling him, he should retain some possible scenario for making the team. If Cox clearly is the best by a considerable margin, there is a way in which he can play his way into the Olympics and improve the strength of the US Team, which is an important consideration here.

    (Yes, I realize this will not actually happen.)


  10. My solution: Cox is awarded a special wrestle-off with Snyder with terms as follows:  If Cox wins 3 consecutive matches against Snyder, he takes Snyder's spot on the Olympic team.  If Snyder wins any 1 of the 3 matches, Snyder keeps his spot and Cox returns to his present situation (not an Olympic team member or alternate).  Aside from potentially losing their status as 1st/2nd Olympic alternate if Cox wins, no compensation, etc is changed for Moore or Gadson regardless of what happens. Also USA Wrestling employees can never be the primary coach for a wrestler going forward.

    This is imperfect, but the best possible option.  Cox is in a worse position vs if this never happened (as he should be) because he has to win all 3 matches, not 2 of 3 and may not be on the world team at all.  But if there is evidence to support the assertion that he is in this position because he trusted in good faith what a USA Wrestling employee was telling him, he should retain some possible scenario for making the team. If Cox clearly is the best by a considerable margin, there is a way in which he can play his way into the Olympics and improve the strength of the US Team, which is an important consideration here.

    (Yes, I realize this will not actually happen.)


  11. 21 minutes ago, MizzouGrad said:

    This is about to get REAL UGLY. Better lock in wrestling fans. We might be seeing J'den in Tokyo under a different flag. 

    I don't think this is possible.  While there are scenarios where individuals with dual citizenship can change to represent a different nation, Olympic bylaws state you can't represent a new country if you have competed representing your prior county in the last 3 years, which J'den has.


  12. To me, talent is primarily genetic.  Wrestling at a high level requires strength of many muscles, flexibility, speed, and body type that is conducive to being able to efficiently execute certain techniques. Among elite wrestlers, some have have more of these innate attributes that others.

    You are right that work ethic is key as well.  Some people have the genetic makeup to potentially be stronger, but others out-train them.  There are certainly cases where if both wrestlers fulfilled their full potential, wrestler A would be favored to win.  But in reality, wrestler B worked harder and wrestler B at 99% of their potential was good enough to beat Wrestler A at 90% of theirs.

    And your last point has merit as well.... even how diligent of a worker one is has a genetic component as well, which complicates things even further.

     


  13. 54 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

    I hereby decree that this phrase shall be stricken from all descriptions of wrestlers who identify as POC until such a time as the offending scribe has demonstrated a liberal use of the phrase in descriptions of wrestlers who idenify as white. The same rule shall apply to the descriptors "athletic" and "explosive."

    I would happily apply that exact phrase to Fix, Dake, Taylor, Snyder, Amos, Spencer Lee, Nick Lee, Gwiz, Coon, Parris, and many others.


  14. 15 hours ago, IronChef said:


    Yes they are going to keep it the way it is because they have to follow the procedures on file with the USOPC regarding team selection. If they change it and Dake loses, imagine the lawsuit that will ensue from the Cornell group.

    No, I think USA Wrestling has an out here.  In their procedures document, they have a bracket that looks something like the one everyone is assuming they will use, but where there are 2 world medalists with byes to the semis, not one (so like the bracket they would use if Dake came down to 74kg and Green won a medal at 70kg and came up to 74kg).  It is clearly labelled "Example Bracket".  And in that scenario, that would be a reasonable bracket.  But that is not the situation we have, so for the case of one wrestler getting a bye to the semi, I don't see why they would not have the flexibility to change to a different, less idiotic bracket. Some of these wrestlers have been training for this for day 20+ years.... you can't have a system where half of the wrestlers get a bye in the semifinals and the other half face a world medalist.... this is not hard people!


  15. 1 hour ago, ShakaAloha said:

    #6 and 7 should wrestle a match, with the winner getting #1.

    Then the next round should be 1 vs. 6/7, 4 vs. 5, and 2 vs. 3.

    The round after that should be 1 vs. 4/5, and Dake vs. 2/3.

    Then 1 vs. Dake.

    USA Wrestling is making this harder than it needs to be.

    This is much better than what USA wrestling came up with, but still not the best.  Barring upsets, the 3 seed would need to beat the 2 seed, Dake, and the 1 seed.  The 4 seed would need to beat the 5 seed, the 1 seed, and Dake.  So in this proposed bracket, being  #4 is still better than #3 (although at least not getting a bye to the semis!)

    The best is to look at Dake as the true #1, move everyone else down a seed, and put Dake in the semis.  Then put 2 and 3 (1 and 2 on USA wrestling seeding document since Dake didn't get a seed) on the opposite side.  So barring upsets, Dake wrestles the winner of 4 and 5 and then the winner of 2 and 3.


  16. Last time, the surprise run was by the 9 seed at 65kg.  This time, that is Nahshon Garrett.  Maybe history could repeat itself?  He's immensely talented.  He made a world team at 61kg, but never had great results at 57kg... that cut looked brutal for him.  He's only competed once at 65kg and that was 3 months ago.  He's further from his injury now and should be in top form.  If can add power and keep his speed at 65kg, I don't think it is crazy to think he could make a run.  I expect whoever wins between Garrett and Ashnault to give Zain a test in the quarters, and I could see Ashnault struggling a bit the first match after weigh-ins.

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