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Posts posted by 1032004

  1. 4 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

    A step out in folkstyle would create an issue with escapes near the boundary but i believe that is easily solved. You just do not award a step out point until action returns to the center. This would be a much easier call for the ref than what they are currently expected to do with regards to out of bounds, which requires far more complicated judgement calls that regularly results in controversy. The rule that was implemented was so flawed and inadequate that most refs ignored by the end of the year and going out of bounds was regularly judged to be no stalls on either wrestler. It was like the rule was never written. 


    Isn’t the boundary stalling rule basically fleeing the mat it’s just a stall warning instead of a penalty?  I think fleeing the mat is a good rule for HS but also not called enough (so when it is it is almost always argued),

  2. 24 minutes ago, NJDan said:

    I think it's poor. Doesn't say much. I guess it's an attempt to claim diversity, but it's mostly white guys. It offers no data. It says "world class." But are any of those guys really world class?


    I believe at least Griffith, Woods and Tyler Eischens were junior world team members

  3. 36 minutes ago, jp157 said:

    Do you understand how hard many more than is comfortable to admit even with those changes went, kicking and screaming, and still grumble about it?

    Im not saying they should be looking. I’m saying they’re 20 years too late in finally implementing much of this stuff and actually expanding outside the traditional avenues. It’s not just the micro level stuff. It’s the macro.

    I had a very enlightening conversation once with a football coach from the south. He had coached in college. Ran his H.S. team like a division I college team. And had been around a lot of wrestling. Talked about things like how wrestling is really perceived, how small it really is compared to bb or fb. How it’s honestly quite amusing when many wrestling coaches whine about always getting screwed because we didn’t do something nearly on the scale those big sports did. We didn’t and don’t put our people into admin or into athletic commissions. Not on the scale of and not for as long as they have. Or how he couldn’t understand wrestling coaches who whined about not knowing how they would pay for a girls coaching stipend. He asked if we were so collectively stupid that we couldn’t understand that we could begin to use Title IX in our favor now.

    No one argued with changing the hair rule after "the incident."

    I don't think there was much pushback on at least allowing two piece uniforms at the HS level and below.   The biggest issue seems to be cost, which of course is an issue with lower income schools.

  4. 9 hours ago, jp157 said:

    All of those things are magnified when trying to spread the sport outside it’s usual demographic. Add in wrestling’s obsession with being the angry small man in the room. So it comes across as a psychotic sport that will get kids hurt, unnecessarily long tournaments due to poor management. 

    Now I understand many of these points can be quibbled, nit picked, and yada yada till the cows come home. I’ve also been around this on both ends of the spectrum on this issue. It’s based off experience. Looking through sport data, general trends, and a lot of experience growing the sport in non traditional areas. 

    Shrug, at this point. The sport is shrinking. Quite frankly even if you want to say I’m making it up. It doesn’t change how the sport is perceived by most of that population. Wrestling has to stop saying and doing the same ole things and hoping for a different result. And stop acting like we are owed anything 

    But again, some of those arguments are not specific to the any particular population.  And I disagree that wrestling is doing the same old things.     In the past few years you have had the expansion of two-piece uniforms, the modification of the hair rule (of course that was reactionary but the result is still good in terms of not hurting participation), as well as the continued growth in girl's wrestling.   You also continue to have many of the top MMA fighters coming from wrestling backgrounds and praising wrestling as why they are successful.   Sure more can be done, but it's a start.

    Although I guess your point is because (boy's) wrestling is shrinking, they should be looking more to populations that have typically not participated as much in the past?

  5. 30 minutes ago, jp157 said:

    You actually helped make my point whether you realize it or not. Especially because them “wanting To” is massively affected by how the sport presents itself. Not just to kids, but to parents. And “wrestling not being cool” is kinda exactly the point I’m making..

    Additionally. Basketball teams are not that big. Plenty of schools of less than a thousand can fill 9th through varsity and that still fill wrestling teams. The basketball excuse is a tired one. That doesn’t even include the kids whose body type precludes making even the local yokel jv team.

    I can tell you from extensive personal experience that basketball is NOT the number one reason, not even top 3 a lot of the time. The top reasons almost invariably involve perception about the sport because of how it is presented and marketed to the outside world. Almost all of these perceptions are wrestling’s own fault and a result of stupidity not cause “well they just don’t want to”

    A lot of it comes from most in wrestling not understanding some basic facts, or willful deliberate ignorance. More specifically, not actually accepting and understanding that the people haven’t wrestled, they most of the time have no clue about it. And have a complete outsiders look. 

    Yes I’m aware of the world team. You also are ignoring other points like the type of school and background  most Elite wrestlers come from. It 


    You keep speaking in vague generalities.   Can you give some specifics?  What are your top 3 reasons?  I have some guesses but I think most of the ones I'm thinking of (such as singlets, skin diseases, and weight cutting) are not specific to gaining more black participants, and are just barriers to gaining any more participants at all.

    ...Ok fine, you can probably get some of the kids that don't make the basketball team.    But you usually don't get the ones that could make the basketball team if they want.



  6. 25 minutes ago, jp157 said:

    Honestly even before race enters it. How honest wrestling is with itself and how it’s perceived outside The inner community of wrestling culture. 

    Then more conversations about the the state of wrestling and it’s general trend outside a very small self cannibalising “elite” crowd. 

    Then before all the other stuff comes into play. A lot of people need to be willing to admit they really don’t want wrestling to grow outside of the current club system and culture. Because quite frankly. If wrestling grew and expanded outside its current area and demographic. And the grass roots system and more of “those other people” developed into elite talent... well that would mean all that club money, tournament fees and clinic money, didn’t make you part of the, eye roll, “elite” and wasn’t worth it.

    and anyone who doesn’t want to believe that this “fuuuuukk you, get mine” attitude. With either deliberate or willful ignorance of the effects on the sport long term are decirving themselves.



    and yes all relate directly to the race issue in different ways. And all of this is before the straight racist, both unintentionally and intentionally come into play.

    As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think you're a bit off base as 30% of the 2019 men's freestyle world team was black.   There are plenty of "those other people" that are already elite.

    But anyway, seems like you're rambling a bit here.   So basically you're blaming the current "state of wrestling" for not growing wrestling in other areas?   Obviously those areas could use some help in growing the sport (as BTS seems to be doing a decent job of doing), but to be fair, the people in those areas also need to want to participate.

    Jordan Burroughs even admits that in his town (which was mostly blue-collar, maybe towards the lower end of middle class but not really poor or anything IMO), wrestling wasn't "cool" and most of his friends played football or basketball - https://www.jordanburroughs.com/blog/beat-the-streets-nyc-the-story-behind-the-event

    Maybe this is a generalization, but I think the biggest issue with growing wrestling with the black population is that it's the same season as baskeball.   Maybe covid will turn wrestling into a spring semester sport at least at the college level.  But I tihnk if it wasn't competing with basketball for athletes, that would greatly help participation amoung black students.

  7. I thought he came off pretty well.  However he did contradict himself a bit (both vs other parts of the interview and his tweets).

    1.  Saying he understands why the women would turn down the money they were offered.  But then bragging about how he’d do it for free

    2.  Saying Flo forced him to apologize (which I did find was interesting), but dropped him anyway, despite him at one point saying that he dropped out on his own

    3.  Confirm he will be at OTT despite at one point tweeting he was quitting wrestling 

  8. 2 hours ago, Boompa said:

    Shot clock is arbitrary which has no business in folkstyle wrestling.

    The current push out is working with a guaranteed stall call.

    The oldest sport in the world and we still cannot figure out how to do it.

    I don’t believe the current push out rule is working.  It seems to be one of the most argued calls, and that’s with the highest level refs calling it.

    What part of the shot clock is arbitrary?  Who the passivity gets called on?  If so I agree, and that’s why my proposal was to start the shot clock on the stepout instead.

  9. 2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

    I think the vaccine will be ready for approval by the end of the year. I voted 50/50 because the exact timeline it will take to vaccinate everyone may extend into the spring. The government is mass producing doses already, but college aged people will likely be some of the last to receive them. If it takes until Feb or March to get the entire country vaccinated, I don’t think they will start the college wrestling season.

    I also anticipate that with college football likely canceled, universities will be relatively eager to cancel non revenue winter sports. So even if everyone is vaccinated by January, I’m not sure the ncaa will be eager to carry out a truncated season. 

    You think football is “likely” getting canceled? IMO the Power 5 at least has at least a 50% of happening if not more

  10. 8 hours ago, ionel said:

    Uetake never lost in either folk or free, he won Olympic Gold while in college and again after, he was never challenged. John could big brother Pat after Pat won 4, and John was probably more dominate last two years than Pat.  Pretty sure if you asked John  and/or Pat who was the best ever OSU wrestler, I know who they would both say.

    Sorry I was more just referring to in terms of college accomplishments, not necessarily “best,” in response to the suggestion to “take the medal score of tbe 3 best years.”

  11. 8 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

    College athletes are not professionals and there is no collective bargaining between athletes and the NCAA. There won’t be a wrestling season until there is a vaccine-terrible publicity and huge risk for litigation otherwise. 

    But haven’t you also said you think there will be a vaccine by the end of the year?   I think most people agree that if there is a season, it won’t start until the 2nd semester, hopefully allowing some more time for a vaccine.

  12. 1 hour ago, Idaho said:

    It should be the three best years ...or first three years. It’s not mathematically Equivalent to  take 4 placements vs 3 placements On medal score. Take Pat Smiths best 3 vs Uetake’s best 3.  

    I don’t think Uetake has an argument over Pat Smith (and yes I know these rankings are just based on math).  Regardless of the circumstances, 4 titles is better than 3 even if the guy with 3 never had a chance for 4.

  13. 2 hours ago, Le duke said:

    It’s hard for them (US guys) to get equivalent results when they have to beat each other to get to Worlds, etc. If we could send more than one rep (and Russia, Iran, etc could, too) I’d bet that Myles Amine would have a hard time making it that deep into the repechage.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    How about compared to Downey?

  14. 18 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

    This would be a really cool event, and regardless of whether it was on Flo or another platform, everyone would watch.  I would make a couple adjustments to your card though.  We've already seen Burroughs vs. Gomez twice, and although it is a competitive match, Burroughs has proven himself superior to Gomez.  I would rather see Gomez vs. Dake at 74 or 79, Burroughs vs. Nolf at 74 or 79.  I don't think Cox can make 86 anymore, and he wouldn't do it for an exhibition so Cox vs. Taylor would have to be at 92. Another option for the last four weights would be this:

    86: Taylor vs. Downey
    92: Nickal vs. Valencia
    97: Snyder vs. Cox
    125: Cassar vs. Gwiz

    We don't have enough depth at 97 in the US, so the only intriguing match there would be Snyder vs. Cox.  We have a lot of good domestic 86/92 guys in Valencia, Ringer, and we all want to see PD3 get destroyed, so you can't put 2 of those guys against Taylor and Nickal.  


    Whoops good call on Cox.   Yeah I guess Downey is probably the best non-NLWC American 86, especially after just seeing Martin vs Taylor.  Although if Flo is putting it together Askren would probably want to see how Myles Amine does against Taylor.  They haven’t wrestled have they?

  15. 34 minutes ago, jp157 said:

    It has been trending that way for awhile and is more and more dominated by private prep schools. The majority of the clientele that can afford to be in the club system come from this demographic as well.

    Maybe it’s senantics but I’m not sure if I’d call a lot of those people “rich.”  Middle to upper middle class sure.  I’ve always got the impression that while there are certainly a lot of families that spend a lot of money on wrestling, they don’t necessarily have much left over after that.

    I think the increased domination of private prep schools has more to do with them drawing from a larger geographic area than in the past and more poaching from kids that previously went to public school (NDGP, LHP, etc) than “private school kids” being a high % of the elite wrestlers.   Plus schools like Blair (and likely even some more “traditional” private schools) offer scholarships.

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