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Everything posted by Icemeister

  1. @JasonBryant. Meant to put a slash in between pin and fall. :-) Anyway, I' do agree with you: Whether we go with your proposal (which does the best job of making it easy for the novice and uninformed to understand team scoring) or one of the other margin of victory options being proposed (which aren't as straightforward, but perhaps produce outcomes that better meet expected results), they would all encourage scoring more and be an improvement over what we have in place today. That can only benefit the sport.
  2. Not that I'm necessarily advocating for it, but the concern with decimals can be easily remedied by increasing the team points awarded by a factor of 10. Instead of awarding 3 base points for a decision, award 30, and then an additional team point for every point of margin of victory (MOV). So a decision with a margin of victory of 4 points would be worth 34 team points, instead of 3.4. According to davenova's proposal, a tech fall would be worth 50 team points and a pin fall worth 60 team points. That approach obviously results in some pretty high team scores, but no decimals. :-)
  3. Good point on Adeline Gray. The original premise of this thread was to ask whether your state's GOAT was undefeated in high school. Since Adeline didn't wrestle in high school, I didn't even think about her; but with 9 world medals, including 6 gold and an Olympic silver medal, she's perhaps the most successful of all US women's freestylers (with only Helen Maroulis in the same conversation). As for the men's side, I think it's clearly Schultz if only considering accomplishments while a high schooler. If he ends up eventually winning an NCAA title, then he'll likely have the GOAT title no matter what criteria is being considered. But until then, I think if you factor in post high school success, Ryan Deakin also has to be part of that conversation given his NCAA title and equally impressive post high school freestyle accomplishments. Since neither of their wrestling careers are over yet, we may need to revisit this debate again in a few years.
  4. And the other recent one that we both spaced out mentioning is Dominick Serrano. While Schultz was undefeated in Colorado high school competition, he did have the two Ironman finals losses. Serrano and Kyle Sand (both also wrestling in the large school divisions) are the only two Coloradans to run the table all 4 years of high school. But, I think if you take everything into account, Schultz is a pretty easy call for Colorado's GOAT, with only Ryan Deakin (with his NCAA championship, junior world sliver medal, and US Open championship) a legitimate challenger if post high school accomplishments are factored in.
  5. Any Colorado list has to include Cohlton Schultz. He was a 4X state champion in the large school division, going undefeated in Colorado, with his only losses coming in the finals at Ironman his freshman and sophomore years. Schultz was a two-time Ironman champ, a four-time Doc Buchanan champ (while giving a 4X California state champ his only loss of his high school career), a cadet Greco world champ and junior world Greco bronze and silver medalist -- all while in high school. He's since added senior world teams and a runner-up NCAA finish to his resume. Not only is it hard to leave him off the GOAT list for Colorado, it would be hard to not put him at the very top -- especially when just considering accomplishments during high school. And if we include post high school accomplishments, Ryan Deakin and Henry Cejudo would probably be the only ones who could so far stake a better claim for Colorado's GOAT than Schultz. (With an Olympic title, it's hard to argue against Cejudo, but he grew up in Arizona, spending only his final two years of high school in Colorado.)
  6. The median finish between 2008 and 2022 for Iowa and PSU is third (Iowa = 3) and first (PSU = 1), respectively.
  7. That's a large enough sample size to be statistically significant. This basically says that Penn State is 30% more successful than the average. That's an anomaly that can't be explained by random chance. This is clear evidence that something is a little bit different at Penn State compared to the average successful division 1 wrestling program.
  8. State Points Population Points / 1M Pop New Jersey 146.5 8,870,685 16.52 Minnesota 88.5 5,739,781 15.42 Pennsylvania 195 12,805,190 15.23 Colorado 75 5,961,083 12.58 Wisconsin 65 5,867,518 11.08 Illinois 134.5 12,518,071 10.74 Idaho 18 1,896,652 9.49 Wyoming 5.5 582,233 9.45 Oklahoma 36 4,007,179 8.98 Ohio 92 11,727,377 7.84 Indiana 53.5 6,842,385 7.82 Iowa 24 3,174,426 7.56 Michigan 71.5 9,995,212 7.15 West Virginia 9 1,755,715 5.13 Missouri 31.5 6,184,843 5.09 Arizona 35 7,640,796 4.58 Kansas 13 2,919,179 4.45 Maryland 27 6,075,314 4.44 North Dakota 3 774,008 3.88 Alaska 2.5 720,763 3.47 New York 63.5 19,223,191 3.30 Montana 3 1,093,117 2.74 North Carolina 27.5 10,807,491 2.54 Washington 12 7,887,965 1.52 Florida 33.5 22,177,997 1.51 California 53 39,664,128 1.34 Nebraska 2.5 1,960,790 1.27 Utah 4 3,363,182 1.19 Virginia 10 8,638,218 1.16 Cuba 12 11,315,021 1.06 South Carolina 4 5,342,388 0.75 Connecticut 2.5 3,546,588 0.70 Georgia 5.5 10,936,299 0.50 Alabama 2 4,949,697 0.40 Massachusetts 2.5 6,922,107 0.36 Vermont 0 622,882 0.00 District of Columbia 0 718,355 0.00 South Dakota 0 902,542 0.00 Delaware 0 998,619 0.00 Rhode Island 0 1,062,583 0.00 Maine 0 1,359,677 0.00 New Hampshire 0 1,378,449 0.00 Hawaii 0 1,401,709 0.00 New Mexico 0 2,109,093 0.00 Mississippi 0 2,961,536 0.00 Arkansas 0 3,042,017 0.00 Puerto Rico 0 3,194,714 0.00 Nevada 0 3,238,601 0.00 Oregon 0 4,325,290 0.00 Kentucky 0 4,487,233 0.00 Louisiana 0 4,616,106 0.00 Tennessee 0 7,001,803 0.00 Texas 0 30,097,526 0.00
  9. Yes, he confirmed as much in his championship post match interview..... https://youtu.be/s6090IrjN_0?t=433
  10. For the Iowans..... State Qualifiers Population Qualifiers / 1M Pop Iowa 13 3,174,426 4.10 North Dakota 3 774,008 3.88 New Jersey 33 8,870,685 3.72 Pennsylvania 42 12,805,190 3.28 Alaska 2 720,763 2.77 Montana 3 1,093,117 2.74 Illinois 33 12,518,071 2.64 Minnesota 14 5,739,781 2.44 Kansas 7 2,919,179 2.40 Oklahoma 9 4,007,179 2.25 Ohio 22 11,727,377 1.88 Colorado 11 5,961,083 1.85 Wyoming 1 582,233 1.72 West Virginia 3 1,755,715 1.71 Michigan 17 9,995,212 1.70 Indiana 11 6,842,385 1.61 Missouri 8 6,184,843 1.29 Wisconsin 7 5,867,518 1.19 Nebraska 2 1,960,790 1.02 Virginia 8 8,638,218 0.93 New York 16 19,223,191 0.83 New Hampshire 1 1,378,449 0.73 Hawaii 1 1,401,709 0.71 Maryland 4 6,075,314 0.66 Georgia 7 10,936,299 0.64 Utah 2 3,363,182 0.59 Connecticut 2 3,546,588 0.56 Idaho 1 1,896,652 0.53 North Carolina 5 10,807,491 0.46 Massachusetts 3 6,922,107 0.43 California 17 39,664,128 0.43 Florida 9 22,177,997 0.41 Arizona 3 7,640,796 0.39 Washington 3 7,887,965 0.38 Tennessee 2 7,001,803 0.29 Oregon 1 4,325,290 0.23 Kentucky 1 4,487,233 0.22 Alabama 1 4,949,697 0.20 South Carolina 1 5,342,388 0.19 Cuba 1 11,315,021 0.09 Vermont 0 622,882 0.00 District of Columbia 0 718,355 0.00 South Dakota 0 902,542 0.00 Delaware 0 998,619 0.00 Rhode Island 0 1,062,583 0.00 Maine 0 1,359,677 0.00 New Mexico 0 2,109,093 0.00 Mississippi 0 2,961,536 0.00 Arkansas 0 3,042,017 0.00 Puerto Rico 0 3,194,714 0.00 Nevada 0 3,238,601 0.00 Louisiana 0 4,616,106 0.00 Texas 0 30,097,526 0.00
  11. That is impressive -- and a fact that I was unaware of. Based on his junior world freestyle championship (prior to the start of his first college season) and the man he beat, it would be very difficult to make anyone else South Dakota's GOAT besides Randy Lewis. But certainly McIlravy is right there as well. As I said in my first post on this topic, it's probably a toss-up between them. Lewis had the national pin streak and freestyle world championship. McIlravy finished his high school career with 5 state championships and undefeated from his freshman year on. Lincoln ended up with slightly better collegiate results (but probably only because Randy got injured his senior year). Their post college international success is probably similar. Lewis did get the Olympic gold that McIlravy failed to; but without the Soviet block countries participating in 1984, it probably doesn't hold quite as much weight as it would otherwise. The bottom line is that I really have a difficult time picking between the two. Can they both share the GOAT title for South Dakota?
  12. I tend to agree in regard to Nash's competition, but can't knock him too much for that. Setting a consecutive pin streak record is a much more rare accomplishment for a lightweight (like Lewis) than it is for a heavyweight (like Hutmacher). However, on the flip side, it's equally rare for a high school freshman to win a state title (and go undefeated) at heavyweight. I give Nash a ton of credit for that. He no doubt faced fewer talented wrestlers during his high school career than the others mentioned, but he nonetheless beat them all, won a national freestyle title at Fargo, and was rated number 1 in the nation at his weight as a senior. It's too bad we won't get to see him at the next level, but I understand why he chose football over wrestling. If we only consider high school accomplishments, he has to be right near the top. However, I think we all know that there are only 2 wrestlers that can really be considered for South Dakota's GOAT: Randy and Lincoln (with probably the Sheer brothers next in line). None of them were undefeated during their high school wrestling career; but McIlravy was undefeated as a high schooler (from ninth grade on), so maybe he gets the slight nod.
  13. The fact that Wallman was a 6-time high school state champion and went undefeated for 6 straight years (from the seventh grade on), probably makes him the GOAT of SD high school wrestling, even though his post high school career didn't nearly measure up to that of many others. If you consider post high school accomplishments, then it's probably a toss up between Lewis and McIlravy for the top spot. Lincoln won 5 state titles and was undefeated from his freshman year on, with 129 consecutive wins. Randy, as mentioned, went undefeated his last 3 years of high school and held the national consecutive pin record at the time. Lewis's consecutive pin streak was a long standing state record that was just broken last year. That record is now owned by Nash Hutmacher with 73 consecutive pins. In fact, if only considering high school accomplishments, I would have to put Hutmacher right up there just behind Wallman -- and perhaps even just ahead of Lincoln and Randy (and then Storley). Hutmacher was a 4-time undefeated state champion with 166 consecutive victories -- and he did it all as a heavyweight (including as a freshman!).
  14. Don't know that we'll ever know the full story behind Marinelli's exit, but I'm thinking it's probably a combination of being both physically and emotionally broken. I doubt one of them alone would have prevented him from opting out. Had he beaten Griffith, I can't see him not giving it a go in the semis, regardless of whatever is ailing him physically. And had he not been dinged up physically (bruised or cracked ribs, abdominal tear, whatever, etc.), I think he has the emotional maturity and fortitude to suck it up and make a go of it in the wrestlebacks -- if not for him, for his team. After all, he's faced significant adversity before, in life and on the mat, and has shown remarkable resiliency. But both together may have been too much this time -- especially when it looks like further points from him won't be needed for an Iowa team championship.
  15. Sounds like maybe he has a broken heart? That can be one of the toughest injuries to deal with, but one that he should be able to eventually overcome as long as it doesn't end up costing his team the title. He's a good guy; and for his sake, I hope it doesn't.
  16. Really cool story and what a neat perspective you have! Sounds like maybe Owings did talk a little smack afterall -- or at least was confident enough to express his lofty expectations to others. The comments he made in his post match interview, however, seemed respectful and tame compared to the brashness that comes out in many of today's post championship match interviews.
  17. Seems like there may have been a bit of misinformation that developed in the wake of the upset, and as the upset grew in magnitude with Gable's continued accomplishments and subsequent fame. After watching the documentary, I can't really see Owings (who obviously was uncomfortable in the spotlight) talking smack. When asked immediately following the match if he dropped down in weight so he could wrestle and beat Gable, he said no, but that it was just the weight that best suited him and Gable just happened to be in it. In the documentary, Owings talked about his prior match with Gable, which was not a blow-out loss, and how they had each done against a tough common opponent earlier in the season (Gable winning by 2 and Owings losing by 2). I think had Gable not gone on to a dominating performance in the 1972 olympics or had Owings won the NCAA championships the next two years (instead of finishing second in both), the greatest upset in the history of NCAA wrestling would not be seen as such.
  18. Not sure if this has been posted before, but great documentary on Larry Owings, which includes his own commentary of his NCAA finals match upset over Gable, and events in his life leading up to it. (By the way, even though Owing's start in wrestling was very inauspicious -- he was fat as a youth and winless as a high school freshman, he was a very good and accomplished wrestler by the time he met Gable in the NCAA finals in 1970, suggesting that perhaps Owing's upset wasn't as great as some might think.) However, what strikes me the most from the well-done documentary is that Owings is just a good, humble guy, who disliked the spotlight, and who is now selflessly giving back to the sport as an assistant wrestling coach for a local Oregon high school wrestling program. It's definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=AHuD161zOBU&feature=emb_logo
  19. Agree. Probably the worst hose job in NCAA finals history. The second of the two third period takedowns was suspect; the first one was simply a horrible call. I think if they would have had replay like they do today and had Michigan coaches thrown in the brick, Churella would have ended up with another backpoint and Hendricks with one less takedown, making the final score 10 - 7 Churella. (I assume replay wouldn't have overruled the no pin call at the end of the second period, but replay might have shown that the match should have never gone to a third period in the first place.)
  20. Except Cejudo actually competed as a high school wrestler there, winning Colorado high school state championships his junior and senior years. That isn’t the case for the others you mentioned . Agree, though, that he is primarily a transplant and probably shouldn't be on Colorado's list.
  21. It remains to be seen how his career plays out, but Cohlton Schultz may need to be added to that list. Certainly his accomplisments during high school are more impressive than anyone else's on the list. Ryan Deakin may eventually deserve some consideration, too. Also, I know that Arizona (and apparently California) claim Henry Cejudo, but Cejudo did graduate from high school in Colorado, where he won his last two high school state campionships. So perhaps he makes the list, too?
  22. The four on South Dakota's Mount Rushmore would be Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, and Lincoln...... Oh, you mean South Dakota's four best ever wrestlers and not the mountain in the Black Hills? Here's what that list looks like (if the Scherr twins can share a single spot on the mountain, which I think should be OK with them, since they did share a womb together): 1) Randy Lewis - 4-time all-american, 2 time NCAA champion, 2-time olympian, olympic gold medalist 2) Lincoln McIlravey - 4-time NCAA finalist, 3-time NCAA champion, 3-time world medalist, olympic bronze medalist 3a) Bill Scherr -- 3-time all-american, NCAA champion, 5-time world medalist, world champion, olympic bronze medalist 3b) Jim Scherr -- NCAA champion, 2-time world silver medalist, olympian, executive director USA wrestling, USOC CEO 4) Dennis Koslowski - 2-time olympian and olympic bronze and silver medalist (greco-roman) Honorable Mention: Brock Lesnar -- 4-time all-american, NJCAA champion, NCAA champion, UFC champion, WWE champion, and more money in the bank than the others combined. :-)
  23. Cael and Holker make the cut because their collegiate wrestling careers spanned into the 2000's. Ojai and Fehlburg's careers were well before that, so they need to come off the list. As a two-time NCAA finalist (with the second coming in 2000), Cody Sanderson deserves consideration. However, Matt Brown was also a two-time national finalist, winning a national championship his senior year. In fact, had he not been sitting behind Ed Ruth his redshirt freshman year, Brown would quite possibly have been a 4-time All-American. Therefore, Utah's list should look like this: Cael Sanderson (4X Champ, 4X AA) Matt Brown (1X Champ, 3X AA) Aaron Holker (1X Champ, 3X AA)
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