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Posts posted by ugarte

  1. 1 hour ago, Jim L said:

    This thread will probably be locked soon, and maybe it should be, but to bring back to sports and Iran's policy.

    This confrontation is more likely to happen in Judo, where Iran has some decent players, at least one World Gold, but Israel has a better and deeper team.

    Would a default by an Irani judoka bring sanctions across sports to wrestling?


    Iran has forfeited Judo matches against Israel in the past - including in the Olympics. The Iranian Judo Federation has suggested that it will not continue following the practice of forfeiting or defaulting but the government seemed to disagree. I don't know if there have been any head-to-head matches since the Iran Judo Federation letter in May and I don't know if the wrestling federation will follow the lead of the judo federation. https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/05/12/israel-iran-judo-letter/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-judo-agrees-to-end-decades-long-boycott-of-israeli-athletes/

  2. 1 minute ago, tbert said:

    Is it just a coincidence that the trials are being "held hostage" by Koll coached athletes?

    Yeah. We just keep getting hurt (Dake) or screwed (Yianni). Taylor would have postponed his match too, if there was any chance of timely recovery. You could have heard a pin drop at MSG when he came up limping against Foster.

    Imagine how terrible the conversation on here would be if Dean escaped earlier against Foster in the finals and had been the guy who was wrestling when Taylor got hurt at BTS.

  3. 15 minutes ago, irani said:

    I would like to share an opinion, and some facts

    1. First the opinion.  It is stupid for the Iran government to forbid its athletes to compete against Israeli athletes

    Now come facts

    1. Most Iranian fans and athletes hate the policy
    2. The policy is based on nationality and not religion
      1. There is no policy against competing against Jewish athletes from other countries.  
      2. If an Arab Christian or Arab Muslim who is an Israeli citizen was wrestling, the Iran athletes would not be allowed to compete against them
    3. The Iranian wreslter who wreslted against an Israeli wrestler (and won) did so not knowing the policy
      1. It was shortly after the revolution, and the coaches, athletes and officials were not aware of the new government's stupid policy
      2. It resulted it such a wrath among the government officials, that the entire team was ordered to return mid tournament


    This is a very cool rendering of the issue.

    I can't imagine having a debate about the legitimacy of Zionism and partition or the complexities of Middle East politics on a wrestling forum. Nobody is going to convince anyone of anything. That said, as an anti-Zionist jew, I find the ease with which right wing non-jews stand up for a geopolitical ally in Israel while putting their heads in the sand about homegrown alt-right anti-semitism hilariously convenient.

  4. Look, i've said this all along: if the timing of the brick was legit, Yianni is going to lose. I can live with that.

    That said, I don't see anything wrong with clarifying that the rule is flexible enough to accommodate a challenge 40 seconds after the action. I think there are good reasons to force faster decisions. In this match, even though there was no actual stoppage before the final whistle, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that if a brick were thrown at, say, :30, the ref  would have found a reason to call a stalemate to keep the clock from running out before the review. Since the timing of the challenge influences how the ref acts, forcing a quick decision minimizes gamesmanship. But that's just my opinion.

    If the arbitrator agrees that the timing of the challenge doesn't matter, so be it. If the timing is OK, it matters even less that I think 2+2 was the right call because the "jury" (however many people that meant) had a different reasonable opinion and the score absolutely should not be changed by the arbitrator for that reason.

    I used to think the "failed" challenge of the sequence in the last 10 seconds might matter, in terms of Yianni getting a failed challenge point, but the audio has convinced me that the challenge was for the 2+2 and the coaches were waiting for the end of the sequence because Zain seemed so close to making the challenge moot. At the very least, I now believe the NLWC corner was acting in good faith when they waited for the end of the sequence rather than tossing a "f***-it" brick because there was no downside.

    Honestly, TBar and TBert and I disagree about a lot here but most of it I don't care about - it's homerism on all of us. I don't even care that they hate Koll and Dake. The only part that bugs me is the idea that a good faith challenge to stand up for yourself is reduced to "bringing lawyers into it."

  5. 10 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

    Would Zain be able to get involved in some capacity equivalent to an intervenor or friend of the court in an arbitration?

    In the Smith-Lewis and Lindland-Sieracki controversies USAW pretty much told Smith and Sieracki to not worry about it and they were not involved at all.  After it was over they were stuck with what was decided.  Sieracki tried to demand his own arbitration with found in his favor, but then that was later tossed because it was seen as a re-arbitration of the first one which he wasn't a party too. It would seem to be in Zain's best interest to try and involve himself in this to whatever extent he can.

    he's a third-party beneficiary but i don't know if he can intervene as of right. arbitration is weird. it's the kind of weird that if he submitted a brief i doubt the arbitrator would ignore it.

  6. 8 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

    The first flo mention of this stated that the arbitrator was one that both sides could agree on, so this suggests the Zain side is at least somewhat involved. There is also one other issue. In Koll's interview with Dernlan he made comments regarding what the Zain side, NLWC, must have believed during the final sequence. If that made its way into his reportedly 18 page letter then I think this brings NLWC into play to offer up their own commentary about their state of mind, something Koll can't truly know. 

    The other "side" is USA Wrestling. If the Lindland arbitration/litigation is any indication, Team Retherford/NLWC is not a party to the arbitration and has no "right" to intervene even though USAW is, in effect, defending their interests. Sieracki learned this the hard way. NLWC wouldn't have any role in choosing the arbitrator unless USAW wanted to run names by them. Team Yianni speculating on the decisionmaking of Zain's corner in its brief wouldn't get NLWC "in play" because that's just not how litigation works. It would be up to USAW to decide how to present its case and respond to any suggestions about NLWC's challenge, though it could certainly encourage USAW to bring someone from the corner to the hearing as a witness or to get affidavits from them explaining their actions and intentions.

    I don't think anyone knows when the ruling will come out, only that the hearing is on the 29th and everyone assumes a quick decision because of the compressed timeline for any potential rewrestling that would have to happen before Worlds.

  7. 1 hour ago, MadMardigain said:

    At the end of the match someone at the table said they needed to brick it and since they did not the score stands.   I guess the question the OK coaches needed bring up is how do you brick something that was never indicated as score by the mat officials and at least the side official to start with but then showed up as a scoreboard point after.  But I did not watch the whole match to say where the point may have came from if as the table said the score was right.  

    wild - i think you can see the coaches notice the scoring error but think they'll be able to ask about it, but when he does, the official keeps saying that it's on the scoresheet and that's it. you see tell that heindselman is distraught because he knows he got jobbed.

  8. This isn't a weird judgment call, there was just a flat out mistake in how the points were awarded during a match. Has anyone seen a writeup or a statement about the scoring mixup in the 285 semis? Has the tournament addressed it at all?

    Heindselman got robbed when Luffman was given a phantom point to make the score 2-2 when the scorer accidentally gave him a point at the same time he was put on the clock. The refs and officials refused to even acknowledge the error. You can see the scoring mistake at the 5 minute mark in the video and you can hear the matside official angrily dismissing Heindselman's coach when he complains about it at the break. 


    To be honest, I thought the communication between the refs and judges and the scorer was mediocre throughout the  tournament. It always seemed to eventually get fixed but the number of times I saw 4s posted as 1s or similar gaffes was stunning to me. It's a huge tournament so I suspect there were a lot of volunteers who had no idea what they were doing or were used to working with paper flip scoreboards, not electronics, but it was still jarring.

  9. 9 hours ago, spladle said:

    No one is saying he deserves to die.

    seriously. i just think he should have been suspended for the tournament immediately with potential further suspension after an investigation. and the kid, who clearly said the words "terrible referee" probably should have had some consequence - forfeit out of wrestlebacks maybe? - but I don't know how you give a kid formal discipline after he's been slapped by an overzealous ref.

  10. 3 hours ago, Crotalus said:

    And J'den is a world and Olympic bronze at that Olympic weight during years Taylor couldn't make the team. And J'den is younger and still getting better every time we see him. The only thing that could hold him back is the weight cut.

    the weight cut is a huge deal. this isn't like college where a bunch of teenagers are still filling out. cox is *huge* now and ripped to shreds. he probably has a negative body fat percentage.

  11. 6 hours ago, tbert said:

    More of a chance for a second match rematch than third.  Nobody in their right mind is going to change an official score to award the win to another team/competitor. 

    agreed. i'm not even sure if reversing the decision in Match 2 is permissible. whatever chance team yianni has of winning the arbitration, i think the best hope is needing to go 2-0 for the spot to go to worlds.

  12. everyone seems to assume that hitting a kid is somehow effective as behavior modification - as if that would justify it - but it isn't even effective. the only thing it does is teach another generation that you don't need self-control and can just hit a kid when you're too frustrated to handle a situation like an adult.

    the only snowflakes here are the people losing their minds that anyone would have a problem with a ref  - who has a lot of non-violent disciplinary tools in his bag - smacking a kid. 

  13. 6 hours ago, tbert said:

    That would make sense if not for the fact that the arbitration is with USOC not USAW.

    But USAW is a party to the arbitration, not Retherford and avoiding any appearance of favoritism among the wrestlers - as opposed to defending their own decision - is in their long term interest. 

    I'm just repeating what Bloody Elbow said, so I don't have any real read on their intent.

  14. 7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    I get what you are saying, and I concede “ridiculous” may be a bit much, but as I said to qc it’s just a matter of perspective which is more important, policy on who can compete in what season tournament for the point of a particular year’s world championships, or focus on the overall big picture on competitive depth of our national team. A blanket policy that says nobody else but the #1’s can go to this tournament is for the former, one that says if you have the means and availability and want to, let’s wrestle..is for the latter. What took place was the ultimate **** storm of bad luck, but you can’t let the unreal odds of that happening factor into policy. 

    I don’t know by what means Yianni and Grey were paid for, but if it wasn’t by USAW then I don’t see how they can deny it. If it was...maybe, just maybe a line or thinking was that hey, this thing is going to arbitration and we may not know who’s 65 yet, not a bad thing for both get some work in. And again, you can’t let the random series of bad luck events that took place factor into that, or at least outweigh it. But then again I’m coming from the side of overall depth and that’s where we look at it differently. Who knows who’s right. 

    Bloody Elbow had a wrapup of Yasar Dogu and said that USAW invited them both to go in order to be neutral while the arbitration was pending.

  15. 4 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

    I mean he did tech last years runner up but last years winner at his weight was Higuchi who needed late match heroics to even make the finals.
    There were a slew of other solid senior level guys there.
    I don't see how training in your room is somehow superior to: going to a  world level tournament and competing in early November.
    Or is there some other tournament that provides tougher competition you don't have to qualify for?

    All I think he meant is that Zain, JO, Molinaro - his American competition at the Senior level - is better than what he'd see at U23. As you pointed out, Yianni wrecked the Azeri who took silver at U23. He may not be ready to win gold at Senior - Beat the Streets notwithstanding - but I can see him preferring to skip U23 even though I'd rather he went. On the other hand, glad to see Eierman go too. Got to respect Yianni's only college L.

  16. 4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    I went on this course for this reason... Taking speaking to a lawyer to lawyering up right away, and in the context that doing so is a huge character flaw and something he should be ashamed of. That’s where I have a problem. ...

    but, and this is important, who cares if it annoys tbar? you don't have to go round and round about it, especially when it seems like you're arguing about whether he got a lawyer at all. 

    Once again: there is nothing wrong with getting a lawyer to defend your interests and people who think it's a problem are just trying to win without opposition.

  17. 2 hours ago, Lurker said:

    So is that your way of saying yes the only thing there is not any evidence to this point of anything with a lawyer except discussing the writing of a letter?  Simple yes or no question. Yes or no will do at this moment. No turns or spins necessary. Just answer. 

    I'm a Cornell guy and I will say this with no inside knowledge: Koll got a lawyer for Yianni. My evidence? Koll is not a stupid man. This is a weird hill to die on, Lurker. 

    The issue is not "did Yianni get a lawyer" (of course he did) but "is it wrong to get a lawyer" (of course it isn't). 

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