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ugarte

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Posts posted by ugarte


  1. 51 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

    Good.  5 seconds is not.  

     

    Foley argued that this is meant to be a guideline not a hard rule and that this can be clearly seen if you consider a challenge for points that are not awarded.  

    “The coach has 5 seconds from the time the questioned score is posted on the official scoreboard to request a challenge.”

    So supposing that’s a hard 5 second rule for questioning points awarded.   If the coach thinks points should have been awarded, but were not, then the questioned score could have been on the board since the beginning of the match since it didn’t change.   Does that mean he cannot challenge it?  Does that mean that rule is not applicable and there is no time limit on challenging points not awarded?  Does that mean the mat chair should interpret it as something along the lines of the coach has 5 seconds from when the points would reasonably be expected to have appeared on the official scoreboard to request a challenge?  Or does it mean 5 seconds is not strictly 5 seconds?

     

    I think the answer on that is if you think points should have been awarded but were not, you have five seconds from the next stoppage, since that is the first definitive time that you can say the points were not put on the board.

    That said, I am not making a claim that the five second "thing" is a hard and fast rule. I'd accept a ruling that it is a guideline. I'd even accept that you can wait almost a minute, if the panel determined that a minute is acceptable as a general rule or even more often than not. There are a lot of rulings that don't go Yianni's way that I'd consider reasonable, I just don't see why you'd kick up a fuss that he's protesting at all given all of the ... let's call them "procedural ambiguities."


  2. 37 minutes ago, drag it said:

    Just noting that tomorrow will be exactly a month since the day that Coach Koll said (on the June 11 Rudis podcast) that he'd be submitting his written letter/appeal/petition to USA Wrestling and USOC.  

    There are a lot of issues and it's a quasi-legal process, so you'd expect that it would take a little while, but we could be approaching the time when the authorities' delay in issuing a decision could start becoming harmful to the wrestlers.  If further wrestling is ordered, you'd want them to have enough time to prepare for the wrestle-off and then for the winner to be able to prepare for the Worlds.  You'd also want Zain to have peace of mind and clarity that his World-centric training won't be interrupted if there is no wrestle-off.  

    in one of flo's yasar dogu videos is an interview with yianni and he shrugs and says that the arbitration procedure, if not the actual hearing, is underway but he has no idea when it will take place or when it will be resolved. his body language says to me that nobody is blowing smoke up his ass and telling him the protest is a slam dunk.


  3. 15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

    Or are you suggesting the note said he was cleared to compete by 8/17, but chose to compete earlier (IMO, saying "competition would jeopardize health" is not clearing him)? I guess that is possible.

    This is pretty much my position - that his recovery schedule indicated 8/17 and any earlier competing was at his own risk (to his health and his record).


  4. 2 minutes ago, tbert said:

    Once again, note allegedly stated 8/17, I heard it from Flow.  He wrestled on 7/6.   Do I have a proof, no. Do you?  I dont even know if he is really injured.  I dont have proof of that either. Maybe he wanted some time with his newborn as far as I know. I dont care the reason. 

    You originally, before becoming unhinged,  wanted to know why people felt that Dake was jobbing the system.

    This is why.  The date he could wrestle was 8/17 but  he wrestled on 7/6.   

    Explain to me why he is entitled to wrestle an international tournament but not his own country's qualifying tourney?

    i don't think anybody doubts that the doctor's note said 8/17 was the appropriate date for Final X. What everyone is speculating about is whether the note said that "competition would jeopardize his health" or "August 17 is the date when he will both have recovered from his injury and rehabbed back to match shape." If you are healthy but not in peak condition, you can go to Spain without worrying about getting hurt but also not caring much if you aren't good enough to win because there are no stakes.

    My point is that if you are making a claim that Dake's doctors misrepresented the earliest date that he could wrestle without getting reinjured, you're going to have to show me that letter.


  5. 2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

    According to the rules, the date is not up to Dake and Dake alone, and specifically states if an agreement is not reached the committee will set the date.

    http://content.themat.com/forms/2019-WTT-MFS.pdf

    And? The date that was selected, whether by agreement or committee decision was August 17. You still haven't shown anything that demonstrates that USA Wrestling can, once a date has been selected, set rules on what the wrestler can do during the intervening time.

    1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

    Of course we don't know, but...

    sorry, stopped reading after that since you're making it up.

    1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

    My point is you're saying "Dake's camp is asserting his rights" based on "the rules."  But the rules also say the committee has a say in the date if the participants can not agree, so they can in fact "dictate how he gets back to form."

    what part of "in the date" also includes "in the training methods"? 


  6. 54 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

     

    You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit by basically saying "Dake is not breaking the rules" but then saying "why should USA wrestling dictate how he gets back to form."   The rules you are hanging your argument on were created by USA wrestling so USA Wrestling can most certainly dictate it.  While not an official rule (yet), it was reported that USA Wrestling specifically did not originally want Dake competing prior to the match with Dieringer, and only gave in after Dake's team pushed back citing the "law" (whether or not it actually involved lawyers).   If you don't want to believe those reports, fine.

    If the rule doesn't say anything about whether live competition is allowed before the postponement date, why would you think that means that USA Wrestling gets to make ad hoc decisions about it? How the hell am I, the obvious radical left winger, the one who has to explain textualism?

    If USA Wrestling didn't have a formal basis to stop Dake, why wouldn't Dake point that out? If USA Wrestling actually threatened to stop him, why would he roll over? It isn't about whether or not I believe the reports, it is that in the worst case scenario you're proposing: Dake threatened to sue USA Wrestling if they tried to prevent him from getting in live competition to prepare for Final X - I literally do not understand why you would think that he would do anything else.

    Dake asked for a postponement on the last possible day, which in English is "on an appropriate day within the rules." You can twist yourself into knots trying to make that problematic but you look ridiculous. Tbar is claiming Dake "jerked people around" but as far as I can tell everyone knew that Dake was going to ask for a delay even though Dake hadn't been open about what his injury was. I don't know if August 17 is bad for Dieringer but if one of the reasons he wants it sooner is because he wants to catch Dake at less than 100%, I am entirely unsympathetic. 


  7. 27 minutes ago, boconnell said:

    If it takes 2 months of prep to get ready (including international travel and competition), then what more information was needed to ask for the extension?  What's the point in asking last minute if you knew you needed the time?

    If you can't acknowledge the gamesmanship going on you're squeezing your eyes shut and burying your head in the sand.

    First of all, on the question "what more information?,"  "an evaluation of his recovery relative to where he needs to be" is more informative the later he gets it. Second of all, I'm not saying it's not gamesmanship, i'm saying "it is entirely appropriate to do something legal" and the complaining about following the rules but not giving yourself a disadvantage is whiny and ridiculous.


  8. 4 minutes ago, Katie said:

    Being a Dake fan must be exhausting.

    Dake fans from 2013 to 2017: The rules are rigged!!!

    Dake fans in 2019: Rules are rules! =P

    at least keep us straight! my position is that JB beat Dake, Dake screwed up by ducking a vulnerable JB and underestimated Cox. no complaints about the rules.

    my other position is that the current situation only "disadvantages" dieringer in exactly the way the rules were intended to disadvantage challengers. this is basically the complaint that some dake fans have about the old one-day format, but i didn't complain then when it hurt dake so i don't feel bad about not caring about the people whining now that it helps him.


  9. 1 hour ago, boconnell said:

    Here's a question...... why did Dake wait until the deadline to file for the extension ...

    "why did he follow the rules?"

    the last day to file is a valid day to file. why would he file any earlier when filing earlier means making judgments about your own future on *less* information. not only does everyone know the deadline date but - based only on what was posted on this board - everyone knew that dake was going to ask for an extension. the idea that dieringer was surprised by the request because it came on the last day is silly.


  10. like i said, you're defining "injury or illness" in a way that leads only to your gut. Is the injury healed when you're not likely to get hurt again or when you've regained your form? Who knows! Not me. But the latter is as reasonable an interpretation as yours. Is there any rule that precludes live competition at your own risk as part of the recovery? Who knows! Not me. But if the "committee put in specific wording" let's see it. Let's have even one person with actual knowledge  go on the record and say it. This "apparently" is a ghost.

    be annoyed, it's a free country. but people keep making it about character and it isn't. 


  11. I wouldn't change anything.

    USA Wrestling wants flexibility and wants to give an advantage to defending medalists. That might be unfair to challengers but it's intentionally unfair.

    There's so much carping about delay decisions made within that framework based on gut feelings about "fairness" that are more emotional than grounded in any overriding principle of what makes something unfair. Not everything you dislike is unfair.


  12. 21 hours ago, boconnell said:

    There is a major difference between it working against Dake in the past and for him now. When it worked against Dake ... it did so in a wrestler neutral rule as you stated.  Every returning medalist got the exact same advantage... But this time only one returning medalist is getting this advantage.  And instead of it being spelled out ahead of time ... the rules allowed for a delay... negotiation took over and each guy is left to argue to get his.  Dake is clearly better at that argument than Dieringer (or Dake's camp is better than Dieringers)... 

    What should be blamed is USA Wrestling for writing such vague rules that could so easily be twisted by a guy willing to fight for his best chance.  The rule should have spelled out the time frame ahead of time, and it should have been a time frame that allowed both guys a chance to peak for Worlds...

    Why do you think only one wrestler got to take advantage of it? It was there for Taylor but his injury was too severe and too close in time for it to matter. Everyone else was healthy enough to wrestle. Not needing the delay isn't the same as "not having the advantage". I don't think Dake argued better than Dieringer, he had the rules on his side: he's the defending champ, he had knee surgery, he invoked his right to delay the match to recover - to heal and to get back in match shape. Reasonable minds can differ but I don't think match shape for this B tournament in Spain is the same as match shape to wrestle Dieringer, much less in Kazakhstan.

    20 hours ago, osufan12 said:

    If Dake is not training with people who have his health at the top of mind then that is just poor planning on his part.

    Even training with people who did, he had 300 pounds of beef land on his knee. 

    19 hours ago, osufan12 said:

    I think it is really unfair to Ringer if Dake aggravates his injury. The general consensus seems to be if Dake gets hurt again then Ringer just gets the spot so no big deal to Ringer. But why do we assume that? Why wouldn't Dake just get another delay? Nothing prevents it. There is still time. This thing is pushed back so far it seems crazy to me to chance delaying it even further. 

    I don't know that nothing prevents it. The rules say that if a defending medalist can't wrestle at Final X they can postpone the wrestle-off but once a date is agreed upon I'm not aware of anything in the rules that allows them to push it back a second time. Once USA Wrestling plans the replacement date my suspicion is that it is final BECAUSE of the gamesmanship you're concerned with.

    As for whether the date has already been pushed back "so far," there is a window for the replacement date and this is well within it. Most of the complaining seems to pivot on whether you consider wrestling in Spain "competition" or "training" when it's basically both. Why you would elevate that question to a character-defining moral question is beyond me. 


  13. 6 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

    This is all great for making sure we have the optimal Kyle Dake for World's. If he wins the spot, there is no doubt we are getting the best Kyle Dake there is and I will root like hell for him. If Dake doesn't win the spot are we getting a fully-optimized Ringer for World's? Maybe not. 

    My main beef is 1.) if Dake gets re injured there is absolutely nothing wrong with this logic and approach that says he shouldn't push back his wrestle off with Ringer even further. If that happens are we going to wrestle off in September? 2.) If Ringer gets injured waiting around for Dake to get 110% then tough luck. Ringer is out and Dake just gets the spot. I get this is all to help our returning medalists. However, there does come a point where giving Dake too much room on this becomes completely unfair for Ringer. At some point the process is designed for someone to earn the spot and not just there to make sure we have Dake at 110%. This is wrestling, no one is ever 110%. 3.) If JB did this to Dake a couple years back Dake would have lost his ever loving mind. 

    If Dake get's reinjured he is SOL. I can't imagine a scenario where he is allowed to push back again unless you are aware of another rule allowing it. If Dieringer gets injured before the Final X match, that sucks for him but the system is designed to favor Dake as a returning medalist. Dislike that logic if you want, but it is how USA Wrestling has designed the system. It's supposed to favor defending world medalists. For years this worked against Dake, now it works in his favor. That's what a wrestler-neutral rule does.


  14. 1 hour ago, Dr. Novak said:

    Not sure Coulter was trolling.  Cornell receives state funding and state funding comes with certain admissions requirements from the state.   Cornell reserves their state-required admissions for their athlete admissions.  They take advantage of state funds.

    trust me when i tell you this is intra-campus needling used in this case just to wind up olby.

    usually we save our jokes about admissions criteria for the hotel school which is not one of the land-grant colleges.


  15. 1 minute ago, Dr. Novak said:

    Has Coulter's claim that the AG school is not real Cornell ever been disputed?

    As a far-left-wing guy, and a Cornell ILR grad (which is a land-grant college, like Ag), I will say two things.

    1) The land-grant colleges are obviously real Cornell, Coulter knows they are and was trolling.

    2) Keith Olbermann sputtering and bringing his diploma to Countdown to yell about it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

    VERY good trolling. Clean knockout by Coulter.


  16. Nobody knows exactly what the doctor's note said but people are making it sound like it said "Kyle Dake must be kept in a cushioned jewelry box until August 17."  I assume what the note said how long it would take to recover from the injury, but that's not the same thing as returning to competition fitness. USA Wrestling would factor in the combination of convalescence AND training time when choosing the Final X date with Dieringer. The competition in Spain for Dake is training. The competition in Yasar Dogu for Dieringer isn't just training: if he beats Dake, he needs it for seeding. Regardless of Dake's recovery schedule, Ringer was going to Yasar Dogu unless Dake chose that weekend for the wrestle-off.

    As to the Dake - JB back-and-forth, Dake lost to JB under the rules in place at the time, and while they favor people with prior success, them's the breaks. JB beat him straight up in 2017. The real career bummer was when Dake ducked JB and Cox beat him anyway. I still think Dake thought that would be a cakewalk and in underestimating Cox, lost a match he absolutely should have won. Since that match, Cox has only improved and now if I were going to duck one of them, I'd duck Cox instead of Burroughs.

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