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Nushy

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Posts posted by Nushy


  1. We went in front of a sectional appeals with this. The refs report didn’t say it was a bite, he said it was an apparent bite with teethmarks. The FHSAA head office decided it was a bite based on the report filed. They didn’t even speak with the referee or discuss the incident with him. They just handed down an 8-point suspension. The school appealed and the FHSAA head office said they were upholding the sanction. The sectional appeals committee said they didn’t think it was intentional and that the refs report didn’t coincide with the video. For some reason they said they didn’t have the authority to remove the penalty from the record so they downgraded the infraction from a level two to a level one. Now we have to go in front of the board of directors to get it removed completely. 


  2. 5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

    In the slowed down video, it doesn’t even really look like the mouth is really open much.  No way to tell what happened, although I do see that the other wrestler shakes off his arm after the whistle, which is a potential sign that he thought he was bitten.

    Again, your issue should not be with the ref.  He thought it was a bite, he called it a bite.   Your issue is with the state association for having a rule that then caused your son to miss so many matches as a result.

    Agreed. They didn’t take the time to look at everything thoroughly. The refs report is a big piece of the puzzle. Keep in mind we also submitted a letter from the opposing coach and athlete saying that they didn’t think the teethmarks were an intentional bite. 


  3. These people have too much power and they abuse it. What are we teaching our kids if we don’t stand up to them? Let’s say something does happen where he’s actually at fault. They can take him out of wrestling indefinitely with that kind of infraction on his record. I’m advocating for my kid and won’t let it go. Hopefully, more people will stand up to them in the future. 


  4. Here is a link to the match in slow motion and in regular speed. The ref is standing directly in front of them. At no point does the wrestler on top indicate that he’s being bitten as the report states. His head doesn’t move from the down position and he doesn’t show a reaction until the whistle is blown after someone in the audience yells “he’s biting”. The ref should have reset them for a potentially dangerous situation. The crossface wasn’t even a crossface. His forearm was covering the mouth while he was pulling back on the head. 

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU7a076-arCyyKTtuGhv0lw


  5. 1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

    You need to read what I said. You wouldn't have had uppers and lowers showing with what you described.

    Biting (Point of Emphasis): If, in the opinion of the referee, a wrestler bites his opponent, it will be deemed intentional biting and will be called fla grant misconduct (Rule 5-12-2c). Referees do not have to see the bite in order to call biting. Furthermore, any claim of biting must be brought to the attention of the referee immediately. One should not assume intentional biting has occurred if only one set of teeth marks is present on the skin. If the referee did not see the alleged bite, he/she should look for the presence of marks from both the upper and lower teeth. Incidental contact with an opponent's open mouth can result in what appears to be a bite; however, the presence of both upper and lower teeth marks is more likely to be the result of an intentional bite than from incidental contact with the teeth. Referees should pay close attention to a cross-face applied to the area of the mouth, especially when the mouth is open. If teeth marks are present after the cross-face is applied to the mouth, the referee should only call biting if he/she believes the wrestler actually bit down on his/her opponent.

    Put your forearm in your open mouth, pull back as hard as you can for 6 seconds and tell me what you see. I guarantee it won’t be one set of teeth marks. 
    After hearing that the FHSAA didn’t even attempt to contact the referee after his report stating that it was an “apparent bite” makes me even more infuriated. The report didn’t say that it was a bite. It said there were uppers and lowers. He also said that the wrestler said “he’s biting me, he’s biting me” which he didn’t and can he seen in the video. You CAN hear a parent in the background shout “he’s biting, he’s biting”. The FHSAA completely failed here. I wonder how many innocent kids they do this to. 
     

    Refs Report:

     

    Reason for Disqualification

    Ejection

    Moses Brett

    Athlete

     

    Lake Mary High School

    During the 145 pound match between Lake Mary and Creekwood dual of the St Cloud Dual Team tournament day 2, I had penalized Lake Mary wrestler, Moses Brett, as a result of an apparent bite on his opponent’s  forearm. By rule, biting is an act of flagrant misconduct, under NFHS rule 5.2.2. The following is a recount of my observations and remediation that followed:

    During the aforementioned match wrestler Brett was in a defensive down wrestling position, engaged in action with his opponent, in the advantage position. During action wrestler Brett’s opponent executed a legal right handed cross face maneuver, with the final position of the advantage wrestler’s hand stopping on wrestler Brett’s left shoulder, positioned on the deltoid muscle. The right forearm of the wrestler’s Brett was positioned across his face at the mouth area, which was open. At this point wrestler Brett’s opponent indicated to me that he was being bitten stating, “He’s biting me! He’s biting me!”. As the result of this observation I stopped the match by blowing the whistle and asked the opponent to show me his forearm. I observed the following:

    An impression of teeth marks with clearly defined markings from both upper and lower jaws on the forearm of wrestler Brett’s opponent. As well, the area around the teeth impressions was coated with saliva.

    As biting is a serious infraction that carries potential severe penalty, I asked for corroboration from a second official within the area to confirm the visible teeth marks. At this point I made the decision to enforce NFHS rule 5.2.1 and 5.2.2, and terminated the match and disqualified wrestler Brett from further competition as per the NFHS penalty chart on page 43 of the 2019 rule book and by rules, 7.5.5, 8.1.3 and 8.1.6.


    Upon informing the Lake Mary Coach of my decision, the Lake Mary Head Coach gave opinion that the marks on the arm were a result of incidental contact. I again clarified my decision at that point per the rules stated. I further indicated my decision to the Head Coach of Creekwood, and reported my action to the Tournament Head Official Dev Doyno, so he was made aware of the situation as it resulted in a disqualification.

    Your name:

    Robert Peipert

    Your Association (Please select one if you are an official)

    Mid-Florida Wrestling Association, Inc.

    Role/Position:

    Official

     

     

     

     

     

     


  6. 6 hours ago, Lurker said:

    @Nushy, how’d it go?

    Frustrating to say the least. The committee agreed that the referee made an error on the call and that his report didn't match up with what the video showed. They also agreed that the teeth marks on the boys arm were not intentional due to the fact that they had a letter from the opposing coach stating that neither he nor his wrestler felt that it was intentional due to the force of the open mouth crossface. We were asking for them to remove the unsportsmanlike conduct infraction from Brett's record but instead the reduced it from a level 2 to a level 1. If I'm not mistaken unsportsmanlike conduct as defined by the FHSAA is an act of malicious or hateful behavior. If there was no intent how is this unsportsmanlike? We will go in front of the board of directors next and hope that they have more understanding of the sport. The committee chair on the sectional appeals panel suggested that next time Brett "tap out" if he is in this situation. The leader of a committee who has the authority to determine an athletes fate doesn't even know the rules as it applies to a high school sport that she is ruling on? 

    I know that I didn't do a very good job of explaining the original incident, so if you are interested I wrote my recount of events up to this point. My apologies in advance, it's about 4 pages long. 

    fhsaa exp.pdf


  7. 7 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

    When did this forum turn into a forum for complaining about offficiating and unfairness?

    Not complaining. Legitimate questions. I honestly don’t know who else to ask. I contacted the NFHS but their response was that they don’t interpret rules for parents. FHSAA answers are biased so the advice and opinions on this forum have been helpful. 


  8. 36 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    Okay so after watching the video I really have to disagree with your description of what happened.  First, it doesn't appear he ripped off his headgear, it looks like it come off in the exhange and he got it out of the way.  This is very common.  Second, he didn't pick him up and charge him to the bleachers.  He shot a double, turned the corner, and ran through the attack, which is exactly what you are supposed to do (although he didn't do it all that well, that is what you are supposed to do).  In doing so you cant just stop on a dime when you're driving full force through a double.  He was allowed to continue the match with no recourse because he did absolutely nothing wrong in that sequence.  The only fault lies with the host school as the proper safety area was not in place, and that situation is exactly why those rules are what they are.   

     
    @Lurker I didn’t realize that the proper safety area wasn’t in place. I’ve been to other tournaments where the mats are quite close to the bleachers. This event was run by a private school and the gym was small. I’m just glad they didn’t run into a child. 

  9. @Lurker thanks for the info.

    You seem knowledgeable about wrestling rules. I know this is going to sound insane, and it is. This past weekend we were at a wrestling tournament. Two school’s (not ours) 185s were wrestling in the center of the mat when one of the kids got pissed, threw off his headgear, picked up the other wrestler and charged him into the bleachers. Fortunately, my husband was sitting where they landed and broke the kids fall. Unfortunately, my husband slammed his back so hard into the bleachers behind him that he fractured two vertebrae (he’s 6ft, 210lbs so you can imagine the impact) Do you know how far the edge of the wrestling mat is supposed to be away from spectators? 

    btw, the wrestler who charged the other kid into the bleachers was allowed to finish the match without disqualification. No recourse at all. I can upload a link to YouTube if you are interested in seeing it. It’s pretty unbelievable. I can’t upload it here because the file is too large. 


  10. @Lurker thank you for the dates. Unfortunately since the paperwork wasn’t submitted before the January deadline we will probably be looking at an appeaL hearing in March. His suspension has been served, but we are requesting a to be heard by a neutral panel and in the hopes of having the infraction removed from his record. I’m also planning on going to future board meetings to request that they clarify and amend the bite protocol in their bylaws. Not sure it will change anything but after our experience someone needs to speak up. 


  11. 12 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

    I don't see that listed that way. As I read it it's if it's malicious, so who knows.

    Here’s the kicker on that... the refs report says he stopped the match because of an “apparent bite” that he didn’t see. He called it after looking at the kids arm because there were upper and lower marks on the kids arm. Put your arm in your open mouth for 6-7 seconds pull back as hard as you can ( the kid was positioned on top, my son was belly down on the mat) and tell me if you have upper and lower teethmarks. 


  12. 2 hours ago, Lurker said:

    I’m not frustrated I’m just saying. I understand your son struggling with the cross face... but that doesn’t make it illegal. I’m just saying that’s not a winnable argument for you, because it’s not illegal. 
     

    Question: in what way did the FHSAA use your video against you?

    I don’t want to go into too much detail because without you actually seeing the photos, video, etc. it will seem like I’m being biased as the parent. They said the kid’s reaction when the ref blew the whistle indicated biting. He shook his arm once after one of his teammates yelled “he’s biting!” (caught on video from the angle the video was shot) and the ref stopped the match. We had the video slowed down and zoomed in. You can see the boys arm actually go into my son’s open mouth and then he proceeds to pull up and back. The opposing coach’s letter even states that his wrestler drove a hard crossface into his open mouth. I don’t know about you but I’ve been bitten before and shaking it off was not my response. 
    They also said that the photo I submitted was taken 3 hours later so it wasn’t admissible. No bruising, broken skin that you would expect with an actual bite.  They didn’t mention the opposing coach’s letter. Didn’t even acknowledge it. 
    I have read so much these last few weeks, but I did read somewhere that if a bite is called a ref should be sure that it was with malice and intent. I could go on and on but it won’t do any good. He’s already served his time. It’s somewhat therapeutic to talk about it though.


  13. @Lurker I know you are frustrated that I keep bringing up the illegal maneuver, but it’s part of the whole picture. It’s really hard to watch on the video as my kid is struggling to get the kid’s arm from out of his mouth. The FHSAA used the video against us instead of for us. The reason I didn’t start this original thread with a biting call was because I knew it would be a hot topic of debate when I’m really just looking for friendly advice, which you have provided. There are multiple parts to the incident in question. 


  14. 49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    My friend why do you keep going to an illegal move, when it’s been explained time and again by multiple people that as you yourself described it, is not an illegal move. Just trying to help, and for one afraid if you don’t understand (and accept) what is and what isn’t about the scenario (i.e. continue calling a legal situation illegal) you guys aren’t going to have much of a chance. 
     

    The 8 points you say Justin is telling you and how it conflicts with the 10 contests as stated, is a solid argument for you. 10 contests is ambiguous and certainly could mean duals, weigh ins, or points. Where 8 points comes from is odd and can see your frustration. 8 points could be 4-5 “contests”.  However as stated ten contests, to put it the best way, is ten weighins or scheduled events...whether it’s one individual match or five. Basically half of the season, which proportionate to other sports season is on the level. That said, assuming this is a first time incident, getting a level 2 for this seems harsh. That could be a strong argument, especially for what you say is good testimony from opposing coach. This really isn’t a rare incident, and I don’t know of any that resulted in level 2 for a first incident. There may be some but I don’t know of them. 
     

    But what’s not going to be a good argument for you is illegal cross face, or whether or not it was a bite, or anything about the official being accountable. Unfortunately that is a “like it or not” situation. The official saw marks on both sides. The point of focus is just that, and the rule is DQ from the rest of the competition.  Trying to argue any of those points is going to hurt your case more than help. The letters won’t help with the call on the mat, but they can with the severity of the suspension.   

    The suspension is up this weekend. Due to the FHSAA office being closed for almost 3 weeks for the holidays and their time constraints on requesting a sectional appeals committee what I will be fighting for is future wrestlers who encounter this unfortunate incident. I am seriously considering a civil suit based on the fact that this is his junior year, a time when he should be getting noticed for college scholarship opportunities. They can’t treat every infraction the same without taking solid evidence into consideration... well they can, and they did, but I will make it my goal to make sure it changes from here on out. Maybe a non-profit who represents athletes and parents who have no where to turn but forums for advice. 


  15. 5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    I looked it up after I posted and there is no change, no mention of points.  This is from this year's FHSAA Handbook:

     

    30.2.1.2 Level 2 Suspension. A student-athlete who receives a second Level 1 Suspension or commits an unsportsmanlike act, as defined in Bylaw 7.2.1, will be ineligible to compete, at a minimum, in the next interscholastic athletic contest, at any level, for a period of up to a maximum of the following: (a) Baseball, Basketball, Soccer, Softball, Volleyball and Water Polo - 12 contests (b) Bowling, Lacrosse and Tennis - 9 contests (c) Cross Country, Swimming & Diving, Track & Field, Flag Football and Weightlifting - 6 contests  (d) Football and Competitive Cheerleading - 5 contests (e) Golf - 8 contests (f) Wrestling - 10 contests;

    I did bring that up to the executive directors assistant, Justin Harrison. There is no mention of 8 points, just 8 interscholastic contests. They came back with 8 points when questioned. I said it before - they say what they want when they want. The school is terrified of going up against them because they are afraid they will get their membership revoked. I tried to screenshot emails to attach but the files are too big so I can’t post them. 

    Interscholastic contest is defined as a competition between two schools. If we have 8 matches between different schools in his weight class during a duel tournament that would be time served.

    But, this is a whole different subject than my original post. This is why I’m so frustrated. There are so many inconsistencies. No clarification of the punishment, no call on an illegal maneuver that could have prevented this whole mess and no due process based on the evidence provided. 


  16. 16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    Unless its changed this year, it is contests for the suspension, not points.  "Points" was never in any of the language regarding in level of suspension.  There is a big difference.  Maybe it changed this year?

    Yes, changed this year. From my understanding they used to suspend by weeks based on football, soccer, etc. In the original email they said “suspended for 8 contests” when we tried to get clarification What 8 contests meant (events, matches, weigh-ins?)  they came back saying 8 points. The whole ordeal has been very frustrating. 


  17. 30 minutes ago, Lurker said:

    Florida does have the five match daily, but no weekly or season match limitations.  Its a maximum of 20 weigh in points.  I'm not understanding the level of suspension here.  Even if it goes down as a level 1 suspension (which would follow the rule but would be the first time I've heard as such for a situation like what has been presented) its two scheduled competitions.  I would say at the very least OP has a really good chance of getting suspension reduced.  There's no mention of 8 points anywhere in suspension guidelines...just 8 competitions (for wrestling) on a level 2 suspension.  Interesting to say the least.

    Level 2 suspension is 8-10 points. Points are as follows per the FHSAA wrestling rules guide.
    4.18.1.1.14 Season Limitations. 20 Points, 2 of which may only be single dual meets. using the following criteria:
    • Dual Meet -1 Point
    • Tri- meet – 2 Points
    • Quad meet – 2 Points
    • 1 Day tournament, Dual or IBT- 2 Points
    • 2 Day tournament, Dual or IBT- 2 Points

     

    He has been out four weeks. Can’t get in front of an appeals committee until February. Suspension will be completed on January 17th. We originally thought that 8 interscholastic contests would be considered 8 matches but when they came back with 8 points that equals almost 30 matches including the day he was DQ’d. 

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