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What if? How will they be ranked ...

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OK, here is the scenario:

 

- Dake stays 157 undefeated, 4x national champ with more bonus wins than last year but not a ton more.

- Taylor at 165 undefeated, continues to destroy, the next year, the same -- 3x champ with 1 loss

- Howe goes to 175 next year, undefeated champion

 

Thus, the three don't challenge each other next year.

 

I'm particularly interested in how folks would rank Dake and Taylor amongst the all time college greats.

 

Does Taylor not having to deal with Dake or Howe in college some how hold him back in the rankings due to his big loses in freestyle to both. Or does his destruction of all comers (almost) in folkstyle enough to make him top 3? 5?

 

Dake's 4 timer championship looks incredible but has 4 losses (correct?) -- I think some rank other non-4 timers ahead of Pat Smith ... Would Dake make top 3? 5?

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Dake's 4 timer championship looks incredible but has 4 losses (correct?) -- I think some rank other non-4 timers ahead of Pat Smith ... Would Dake make top 3? 5?

I love the, but has 4 losses part. I get what you are saying but it just sounds funny.

 

IMO

1. Cael

2. Gable

3. Dake, Pat Smith, John Smith (not sure which to put them in but Dake winning 4 titles at 3 different weights might get a slight edge)

 

For me Taylor took a big hit getting man handled by both Dake and Howe in freestyle. That being said I still think he can make a case to be in the top 5 when all is said and done.

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If we are talking NCAA would Gable be that high? He only has 2 titles. Plenty of 3xers.

 

I completely see where you are coming from. But for me, mabe its the Gable mystique. He did things never done before in wrestling.

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Taylor still wins. He could not take the risks in freestyle and is so much more dominating in folkstyle. He will

 

be at the top with only 1 loss in college.

 

Next Year

Dake 157

Taylor 165

Howe 174

Ruth 184

QW 197

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I really don't know what to think of Taylor in an "all time" sort of terms. I really do think he needs to beat some better competition and I really do think the freestyle losses hurt him. I really do think Ed Ruth is better, but as I've said in the past, that is just using the eye test and their are those out there who know for sure if I'm right or wrong. Hopefully someday someone confirms my eye test or disproves it. If Dake wins his 4th then hes number 2 or 3 in my book. Four titles is four titles. Montell Marion and Derek St. John do not suck, I guarantee you the Penn St. crowd will tell you Frank Molinaro does not suck. Plus you can already see Dake developing in freestyle. Taylor could win three and be up there from 4 to 20 or so probably (I can't remember how many three timers there are but I seem to remember a lot), but I've got to see him put some more quality wins on that resume. If Howe wins he will have two titles and in greatness terms that is a dime a dozen. I do agree that titles should be how greatness is judged but it doesn't determine who the best was. Jordan Burroughs his senior year smokes Howe, Dake, and Taylor but he only has two titles so he's way down on the greatness list.

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If we are talking NCAA would Gable be that high? He only has 2 titles. Plenty of 3xers.

 

-----

 

Back in the sixties, true fr couldn't wrestle at ncaa. But Gable was able to wrestle in other tournaments, including the very formidable Midlands. Back then, it was comparable to the ncaa, and in some weights even more difficult, with former and current ncaa champs, AA's, and World medalists sometimes competing.

 

As an 18 yr true fr, Gable won Midlands. He beat the ncaa runnerup by 10-5 in semi's (Behm), and former ncaa champ, 3X ncaa finalist, and World silver medalist Masaaki Hatta in the finals by 8-3. For his fr season, Gable went 17-0.

 

What followed over the next 3 years is well known. 180-0 combined HS and collegiate record, with dominating performances that were unbelievable. In his 3 years at ncaa, Gable recorded record number of total falls and consecutive falls, which still stand to this day I believe.

 

That, heading into his last match, which he lost to Owings by 13-11.

 

One other tidbit that adds to his collegiate resume. In the dual against Okla during his sr year, Gable wrestled up a weight, to face the returning 150# ncaa champ (Mike Grant - who would win the ncaa @150# again that year), and he beat Grant 9-4.

 

It's okay to simply count titles, but keep in mind that having a RS fr year to improve is a significant advantage that many in the modern era often use. Cael did lose a match as a RS fr, as did Taylor. That Dake won a title as a true fr adds a little something extra for his record, imo.

 

Just my 2 cents, but looking at the larger picture, Gable would have to be mentioned as a contender for the greatest collegiate wrestler.

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If we are talking NCAA would Gable be that high? He only has 2 titles. Plenty of 3xers.

 

-----

 

Back in the sixties, true fr couldn't wrestle at ncaa. But Gable was able to wrestle in other tournaments, including the very formidable Midlands. Back then, it was comparable to the ncaa, and in some weights even more difficult, with former and current ncaa champs, AA's, and World medalists sometimes competing.

 

As an 18 yr true fr, Gable won Midlands. He beat the ncaa runnerup by 10-5 in semi's (Behm), and former ncaa champ, 3X ncaa finalist, and World silver medalist Masaaki Hatta in the finals by 8-3. For his fr season, Gable went 17-0.

 

What followed over the next 3 years is well known. 180-0 combined HS and collegiate record, with dominating performances that were unbelievable. In his 3 years at ncaa, Gable recorded record number of total falls and consecutive falls, which still stand to this day I believe.

 

That, heading into his last match, which he lost to Owings by 13-11.

 

One other tidbit that adds to his collegiate resume. In the dual against Okla during his sr year, Gable wrestled up a weight, to face the returning 150# ncaa champ (Mike Grant - who would win the ncaa @150# again that year), and he beat Grant 9-4.

 

It's okay to simply count titles, but keep in mind that having a RS fr year to improve is a significant advantage that many in the modern era often use. Cael did lose a match as a RS fr, as did Taylor. That Dake won a title as a true fr adds a little something extra for his record, imo.

 

Just my 2 cents, but looking at the larger picture, Gable would have to be mentioned as a contender for the greatest collegiate wrestler.

 

 

rossel3 ... Well done. Most of the posters here were not alive back then, or involved / engaged in wrestling at that time. People forget how brutal it was without that extra year. Nor did they understand the things Dan did as a True Fr.

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Dake's 4 timer championship looks incredible but has 4 losses (correct?) -- I think some rank other non-4 timers ahead of Pat Smith ... Would Dake make top 3? 5?

I love the, but has 4 losses part. I get what you are saying but it just sounds funny.

 

IMO

1. Cael

2. Gable

3. Dake, Pat Smith, John Smith (not sure which to put them in but Dake winning 4 titles at 3 different weights might get a slight edge)

 

For me Taylor took a big hit getting man handled by both Dake and Howe in freestyle. That being said I still think he can make a case to be in the top 5 when all is said and done.

 

When the dust settles, and the years go by, the FS losses will not play that big a role, in evaluating his College career. We are talking College/NCAA ...

 

IMO there are two different worlds. NCAA, and Olympic styles.

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If we are talking NCAA would Gable be that high? He only has 2 titles. Plenty of 3xers.

 

-----

 

Back in the sixties, true fr couldn't wrestle at ncaa. But Gable was able to wrestle in other tournaments, including the very formidable Midlands. Back then, it was comparable to the ncaa, and in some weights even more difficult, with former and current ncaa champs, AA's, and World medalists sometimes competing.

 

As an 18 yr true fr, Gable won Midlands. He beat the ncaa runnerup by 10-5 in semi's (Behm), and former ncaa champ, 3X ncaa finalist, and World silver medalist Masaaki Hatta in the finals by 8-3. For his fr season, Gable went 17-0.

 

What followed over the next 3 years is well known. 180-0 combined HS and collegiate record, with dominating performances that were unbelievable. In his 3 years at ncaa, Gable recorded record number of total falls and consecutive falls, which still stand to this day I believe.

 

That, heading into his last match, which he lost to Owings by 13-11.

 

One other tidbit that adds to his collegiate resume. In the dual against Okla during his sr year, Gable wrestled up a weight, to face the returning 150# ncaa champ (Mike Grant - who would win the ncaa @150# again that year), and he beat Grant 9-4.

 

It's okay to simply count titles, but keep in mind that having a RS fr year to improve is a significant advantage that many in the modern era often use. Cael did lose a match as a RS fr, as did Taylor. That Dake won a title as a true fr adds a little something extra for his record, imo.

 

Just my 2 cents, but looking at the larger picture, Gable would have to be mentioned as a contender for the greatest collegiate wrestler.

 

 

rossel3 ... Well done. Most of the posters here were not alive back then, or involved / engaged in wrestling at that time. People forget how brutal it was without that extra year. Nor did they understand the things Dan did as a True Fr.

 

Fine, you win, Gable was better as a true freshman than Cael, and even Dake. However, Gable could not even win an NCAA title as a senior!! Best ever in college? No way.

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If we are talking NCAA would Gable be that high? He only has 2 titles. Plenty of 3xers.

 

I completely see where you are coming from. But for me, mabe its the Gable mystique. He did things never done before in wrestling.

 

What things are they????, besides failing to become one of many undefeated 3 time national champions...

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People are putting way to much emphasis on Taylor's freestyle losses at this point in the game. Remember that this was his first senior level tournament and while he does have a lot of freestyle experience, he hasn't wrestled on the senior level before this year. Howe has been top 2-3 at his weight for the last 3 years or so and Dake was top 5 last year. So it wasn't like he got trounced by some run of the mill guys either. Metcalf for example dominated a lot like Taylor did and he took a number of losses in freestyle during college. It wasn't until after graduating that he broke through and was able to make the world team. My point is that if we wait and re-evaluate this again in say 2016, these three will have graduated and moved on to international wrestling full-time and we could have a better idea of where to truly rank them. If you are ranking them on strictly ncaa results and record, then the freestyle results of all three shouldn't have anything to do with the discussion.

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OK so perhaps the Sanderson/Gable/Uetake/Hodge maintain top 4? Is that a consensus?

 

Do Dake or Taylor make top 5? Possibly no ??!!!

 

As someone mentioned, perhaps the scenario should have Ruth winning out as well.

 

It could be (note, could be) that we are witnessing a narrow time frame when there are 3 wrestlers that could be considered top 10/15 of all time in college wrestling ... all wrestling at the same time.

 

Pretty damn cool.

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OK so perhaps the Sanderson/Gable/Uetake/Hodge maintain top 4? Is that a consensus?

 

Do Dake or Taylor make top 5? Possibly no ??!!!

 

As someone mentioned, perhaps the scenario should have Ruth winning out as well.

 

It could be (note, could be) that we are witnessing a narrow time frame when there are 3 wrestlers that could be considered top 10/15 of all time in college wrestling ... all wrestling at the same time.

 

Pretty damn cool.

 

 

I'd say Dake has just about sealed the deal on at least top ten more like top five.

 

Give Taylor and Ruth another year to get into the discussion.

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I am not just looking at titles. Gable had 3 chances to win titles and won 4. I think that automatically puts him behind Smith, Sanderson, and anyone else who won 3 in 3 years. I think people lmp Gables coaching in with his wrestling too often. Top 20 yes, but not top 3.

 

Sanderson, Uetake, Smith, Hodge

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I am not just looking at titles. Gable had 3 chances to win titles and won 4. I think that automatically puts him behind Smith, Sanderson, and anyone else who won 3 in 3 years. I think people lmp Gables coaching in with his wrestling too often. Top 20 yes, but not top 3.

 

Sanderson, Uetake, Smith, Hodge

dude he be the man if he did this 'Gable had 3 chances to win titles and won 4'. Typo, got it.

 

Top 10/5 for dominance.

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I am not just looking at titles. Gable had 3 chances to win titles and won 4. I think that automatically puts him behind Smith, Sanderson, and anyone else who won 3 in 3 years. I think people lmp Gables coaching in with his wrestling too often. Top 20 yes, but not top 3.

 

Sanderson, Uetake, Smith, Hodge

Gable ran off 100+ in a row. Not too many else have done that.

tecnically Smith won 3 in 4 years (probation)

would Sanderson have won as true frosh?

 

just sayin'....there are no absolute answers in these discussions. different eras, weights, levels of comp, etc. Hell I have Mark Schultz way up there but he 'only' won 3 and DNP in his 1st year...but every guy he beat in finals was a 4 x AA and between them they finished with 4 titles and 10 finals appearances. And then he did ok in free too.

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