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Was Cael Cael after his undefeated RS frosh year? Is iMart in the same league?

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I was a huge fan and know it better than you do I bet, but if you take the finals victories of the four time NCAA champs, he's pretty mediocre. 2-2-3 is an amazing achievement, but I don't really think his ceiling as a competitor was that high, but he reached it really quickly. 

 

Sorry for the extremely nuanced opinion, but I don't think Cael faced an exceptionally tough field. 

Well in case you forgot..he was ranked 1st or 2nd in the country his freshman year before getting hurt.  Seeded 2, 1, 1 at nationals.  Never won it but came about as close as you can vs Hahn and wrestled with goggles the entire time.  Goggles.  Which I've never tried but I'd imagine is pretty hindering.  Multiple wins over 3x champ Rosholt while wearing said goggles.  I'd say he qualifies as top tier competition.  

 

Eggum was a silver medalist and Cormier an Olympian.  V Jones was probably his "easiest" finals opponent as a two time finalist.  I'd say his competition was a step below Dake, on par with Stieber and better than P Smith's.

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Trenge was also a massive head case who couldn't handle tough matches. Plus he could have wrestled in a wheel chair and it wouldn't have had any relevance to the conversation. He's not "top tier" competition, and I can say that because it's just a term you made up.

 

Eggum and Cormier fall under the james green category. I'm really optimistic about him this fall...regardless he was never a gritty folkstyle wrestler (I won't fault eggum for lack of grittiness but regardless free is not folk).

 

Anyway, your own analysis puts his competition at middling when you consider the ultra high standards of competition faced by 4x NCAA champions, so I rest my case on your conclusions.  

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Trenge was also a massive head case who couldn't handle tough matches. Plus he could have wrestled in a wheel chair and it wouldn't have had any relevance to the conversation. He's not "top tier" competition, and I can say that because it's just a term you made up.

 

Eggum and Cormier fall under the james green category. I'm really optimistic about him this fall...regardless he was never a gritty folkstyle wrestler (I won't fault eggum for lack of grittiness but regardless free is not folk).

 

Anyway, your own analysis puts his competition at middling when you consider the ultra high standards of competition faced by 4x NCAA champions, so I rest my case on your conclusions.  

I think we're splitting hairs when talking about which 4x champ faced better competition.  Its the NCAA tournament.  You win it 4 times you went through some sturdy competition.  Cael>Dake>Stieber>Smith

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One thing many are missing in the comparisons is the year their competition was in when they faced each other.  IMart beat Green and Ness when they were returning with 3 AA finishes each.  You also have returning AA's in Perrotti, Minotti, Brascetta, Miller and Realbuto.  And to top that off, other than Green, he WRECKED every one of them!  IMart essentially won a weight class with 11 returning AA finishes.

 

The hardest part of this comparison is that everyone Sanderson wrestled has long since finished their careers in not only College but Internationally as well.  The only fair way is to compare how they had done going into the 1999 DI Championships(Sanderson's 1st Championship). Strand was a returning 2x AA, Eggum, Jones, Greenfield and Van Doren had 1 apiece.  That adds up to 6 returning AA finishes.

 

In the end, I don't think this argument makes much difference as to whether IMart will go undefeated.  I do, however, believe this makes a great argument for IMart having the best Overall Freshman year of All Time! 

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One thing many are missing in the comparisons is the year their competition was in when they faced each other.  IMart beat Green and Ness when they were returning with 3 AA finishes each.  You also have returning AA's in Perrotti, Minotti, Brascetta, Miller and Realbuto.  And to top that off, other than Green, he WRECKED every one of them!  IMart essentially won a weight class with 11 returning AA finishes.

 

The hardest part of this comparison is that everyone Sanderson wrestled has long since finished their careers in not only College but Internationally as well.  The only fair way is to compare how they had done going into the 1999 DI Championships(Sanderson's 1st Championship). Strand was a returning 2x AA, Eggum, Jones, Greenfield and Van Doren had 1 apiece.  That adds up to 6 returning AA finishes.

 

In the end, I don't think this argument makes much difference as to whether IMart will go undefeated.  I do, however, believe this makes a great argument for IMart having the best Overall Freshman year of All Time! 

Its IMAR!! :)

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The Soph year match against Damion Hahn was close mainly because Hahn ran away from him most of the match. Amost worked. Han was good but Cael still won.

The first year Cael and Joe Heskett wrestled undefeated until the NCAA tournament when Heskett took third. Before the year and during it most of us would have put out money on Joe to take the Title. Joe had also defeated Cael at Reno before college.

Watching Cael put it all together was magic. No injuries severe enough to derail him. No flu or colds or whatnot that took it out of him for 'that one match' as so often happens.

At the time there wasn't all the hype on "4Timer" really until into his 3rd Varsity season and then it began to build. Bobby Douglas did a good job managing the hoopla and helping keep Cael grounded. Helped that Bobby had seen Danny Gable going through it - not to mention Bobby is the only wrestler to beat Gable five times - and Cael listened to him.

Cael was amazing in High School, even better than his two older brothers who were very good. I think it was Cole who first chose Iowa State - turning down BYU where their father had wrestled. Part of the reason was Alan Albright - the BYU coach - who was generally thought to be a putz and a loser. ISU benefitted from the Sanderson Clan.

Looking back at the video matches we have of Cael - sure wish he had not retired from world competition so soon.

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I think we're splitting hairs when talking about which 4x champ faced better competition.  Its the NCAA tournament.  You win it 4 times you went through some sturdy competition.  Cael>Dake>Stieber>Smith

You are the one who started this by saying we needed to consider the toughness of the opponents Cael faced! 

 

IMHO his opponents were weaker than Stieber's also. 

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Cael wrestled two guys who moved up a weight class to get away from him, and each won an NCAA title. I was very impressed with Imart at the NCAA tournament. In my mind he is at essentially the same level as Cael at the same stage.

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You are the one who started this by saying we needed to consider the toughness of the opponents Cael faced! 

 

IMHO his opponents were weaker than Stieber's also. 

Not really.  I said you could argue IMar frosh year's competition may have been tougher than Cael's frosh year competition.  But over the course of four titles you can't really say a guy didn't face worthy opponents.  Which is what you seem to be claiming.

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We can not answer this yet until we see what IMAR's competition does in the next NCAAs and internationally. Right now I am going with Cael. The next level means a lot to me. Cormier was a monster and 7 time champ up a weight. Vering and Eggum were world silver medalist. And Trenge was probably one of the best not to win a title. His eye issues kept him back but he still would not have beat Cormier. Hahn had an amazing career but could not beat Cormier either for us to see what he could do internationally. 2008 Hahn should have gone to China! Jones was his worst guy and he was great also. He did not wrestle at the next level. cael's guys have done better at the next level and were pretty close or better at the NCAA level also. How can anyone say IMAR had tougher guys at this point. Green will not medal then he has to bump up to 163. Not saying IMAR's competition won't pass Cael's but you can not say at this point.

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I'm not convinced Green won't medal, but even if he does it doesn't make him a tougher folkstyle wrestler. This stuff about Eggum and especially Vering is complete nonsense. 

 

But honestly I guess I can't claim to not be impressed (in the context of the conversation) with Trenge and Eggum, sense their reputations rest on different foundations, so I wouldn't be arguing honestly if I didn't admit one....I probably just got annoyed when someone said "Cael was just that good" as if they were the first to figure it out. 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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Then again, if any of these guys don't face Dan Gable how can we even raise them above the level of local PeeWee wrestling champs?

 

Get real guys, they face anyone on the schedule. As long as they don't duck someone it doesn't matter.

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Cael's offense is what separates him from any of the other 4 timers or potential 4 timers along with zero losses. And his defense was pretty good as well. He is the #1 guy ever, he simply just is. And his top competition in Cormier, Hahn, Eggum, Jones and Trenge and even throw Fullhart in there with a midlands win over him. Those guys are a cut above IMARs guys at the moment but that could change if Green wins hardware and who knows who his opponents will be in the next three years if he wins of course. I don't see anyone beating him though in folk.   

Edited by PRyan2012

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Cael's offense is what separates him from any of the other 4 timers or potential 4 timers along with zero losses. And his defense was pretty good as well. He is the #1 guy ever, he simply just is

I'm trying to figure out if I have enough energy and time for yet another discussion of best college career vs highest level achieved during college.  :)

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I think we're splitting hairs when talking about which 4x champ faced better competition.  Its the NCAA tournament.  You win it 4 times you went through some sturdy competition.  Cael>Dake>Stieber>Smith

 

I"d like some verification of why you put old man Stieber over Pat freakin Smith?

a. Pat didn't lose after his freshman year, maybe tied

b. Pat was still 19 when he won his first title, not 20

c. Pat didn't lose to an underclassmen after his freshman year

d. Pat paved the way

e. Pat wasn't sitting on his butt winning his first NCAA title in a very controversial match

 

Sanderson/Dake ( yes, both accomplishments are at least equal in my book)/Smith/Stieber

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We can not answer this yet until we see what IMAR's competition does in the next NCAAs and internationally. Right now I am going with Cael. The next level means a lot to me. Cormier was a monster and 7 time champ up a weight. Vering and Eggum were world silver medalist. And Trenge was probably one of the best not to win a title. His eye issues kept him back but he still would not have beat Cormier. Hahn had an amazing career but could not beat Cormier either for us to see what he could do internationally. 2008 Hahn should have gone to China! Jones was his worst guy and he was great also. He did not wrestle at the next level. cael's guys have done better at the next level and were pretty close or better at the NCAA level also. How can anyone say IMAR had tougher guys at this point. Green will not medal then he has to bump up to 163. Not saying IMAR's competition won't pass Cael's but you can not say at this point.

 

 

I've never understood the logic of someone's opponent is considered better due to his accolades years later.   

 

Keep in mind what matters is the level the opponent was at the time they wrestled, and for that matter, what matters is folkstyle, not freestyle.   

 

Jamil Kelly was never an exceptional college wrestler, yet he went on to win Olympic Silver.   Are we to suddenly credit those guy sin college years prior with wins over Kelly, with beating an Olympic Silver medalist?  Of course not, he wasn't an Olympic silver medalist back then, nor was he capable of becoming one at the time.   It's like that girl who beat Nickerson in pee wees, does she suddenly get her record padded by virtue of a win over an NCAA champion?  

 

I mean just think of what you're saying, lets wait and see how Green does, if he wins hardware the win is even better.   Nonsense.   Green had 4 cracks at an NCAA title and could never win 1.   He just was not good enough.   Now he wrestles a different style and he's one of the best in the country at that style, that somehow means he is a better folkstyler?  

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nah Cletus, the transitive property holds true no matter what style or when. I mean I was no better than a top 8 in state guy in HS, but somewhere in there I beat a guy who went on to be an EIWA champ...and he beat some good guys in college...who also beat some guys...and gets to the point of Melchiore beat Fisher who beat John Smith who beat Sergei Belaglazov (as if Smith wasn't impressive enough) 

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How can your status as a wrestler diminish or amplify a week, a year, or ten years after your opponents (that you defeated or lost to) lost to a lesser wrestler or beat a world class wrestler? If it did then Cael's accomplishments in college could be looked at as less impressive, I mean he eventually became an Olympic gold medalist. With that accolade alone one would think that he would have dominated his college completion in a far greater capacity. It simply doesn't make sense. The fact is that Cael was not an Olympic Gold medalist when he wrestled in college. Cael and every other wrestlers (including Imars) record should only be seen for who their opponents were and what they accomplished at the time they defeated them or were defeated by them. Anything that happens after they wrestle is irrelevant in judging how good your opponents were when you wrestled them. Just how I see things.

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