Was Cael Cael after his undefeated RS frosh year? Is iMart in the same league?

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,050]

so how is any wrestler to be evaluated? a week after Cael won his 4th NCAA many would consider him the best folkstyle wrestler at that moment. except all of his accomplishments were against wrestlers in the past, who are all at different levels know. so i guess only in the instant just before a match is over is it possible to evaluate anyone. 

 

or we could consider all opponent results as relevant information with regards to an evaluation and discount that relevance by mitigating factors, time being the principal component of that calculus. 

[unbiased 516]

Evaluate wrestlers on what they did up to the point of what you are evaluating. If you are evaluating Cael as a D1 wrestler then you look at who he beat during the College wrestling season up to the time he won his fourth title. How can you say he is a better or worse wrestler for having won or lost matches against opponents that haven't even happened yet or go back years after they have happened and give a different opinion of a college wrestling career of matches that took place after he finished his college career. Any match that Cael wrestled after his fourth NCAA Championship or any matches that his opponents wrestled after he won his fourth title should have absolutely no bearing on how his college career should be perceived. His quality of opponents can only be seen for what they did during the college season. This goes back to any of the other 4-timers that took loses. Can we say that anyone that beat them in the college season defeated a 4-time champ?... No, they defeated an "eventual" 4-time champ. If they didn't have 4 championships when they were beat, then they beat someone who eventually became a 4 time champ. Ex. Retherford beat 2-time champ Logan Stieber. The fact that Logan went on to win two more titles would only change the comment to Retherford beat eventual 4-time champ Logan Stieber or Retherford beat 4-time champ Stieber (just before he won his last two titles). The same thing goes for Imar. If James Green goes on to win every match and championship under the sun, in no way does it affect how Imar is seen for defeating him. James Green's wrestling career from his last college match until his last match ever doesn't affect Imar unless they wrestle again. If they do wrestle again it does not change Imar's college wrestling career. If Cael was considered to be one of the best Folkstyle wrestlers at the point he won his fourth then that is great but the only thing that could change that is if someone else came along and had a better Folkstyle career than him. You can't change his college career because of what his opponents did after the fact, for better or worse. They aren't relative. Imo.

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

I beat an eventual world bronze medalist in thumb wrestling (no weigh ins) during a cook out in my old man's back yard, while this individual was in elementary school, a couple or three decades ago.   

 

Sure the styles were different, but does that elevate me any because she went from a pee wee whipping person to a world beater after the fact?

 

It's just silly

 

I once heard one of the Iowa fans on this board tell us the class Metcalf won in college had gotten even better, as so and so had placed or made a team or something to that affect.   I don't recall the details, but I thought and this guy is a professional?  This guy works in a firm and they pay him for his talents?  No, the weight class did not get better 10 years later, that is simply ridiculous.   But I continue to see that logic here up and down these boards.   What it means is those guys got better.  The weight class is what it was and it will always remain what it was during that season, 10 years ago or what ever it was.  

[WillieBoy 713]

One thing to remember about the final year Cael wrestled is his moving up a weight. Didn't need to. He was taking flack for wrestling in a weight class that had cleared out because so many did not want to face him.  "Let him move up and he'll get his azz handed to him" was the refrain at the time.

 

Cael moved up a weight and won going away.

 

As to the next possible 4 timer. Not really a discussion until they have won at least two, preferably three titles. A lot can happen with injury, illness and the like. Add in the major target one is when gunning for a four time title run and what Pat Smith, Cael, Dake and Steiber have done is even more impressive.

[silver-medal 670]

We will see four timers with more frequency in the years to come.  

[headshuck 2,600]

Are we really just dancing around the issue that Taylor had the easiest path to 4 finals in NCAA history?

[Flying-Tiger 617]

How many finalist was Minnesota supposed to have last season, 4-5?  

[MSU158 2,008]

tigsy,

 

The answer to your troll-like question is 1. C. Dardanes was the only Gopher seeded top 2.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

Straw Alert! Who said anything about seeds? Minnesota fans were predicting 4 or 5 finalist at the beginning of last season (Dardanes', Ness, Storley & Schiller) If it's true, it's not a troll post. Now shuck on the other had sure does love to troll with his one sentence drive byes. Funny how you have no problem with that. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by Flying-Tiger

[headshuck 2,600]

Gee, I didn't know you'd get so worked up and go off topic.

 

We were discussing quality of competition for 4-timers and that example presented a slightly broader discussion. 4-time finalists and their competition.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

Seems right on point. You implied that Taylor has an easy road to the finals and I demonstrated to you how hard it can be to make the finals by showing how a lineup that some were predicting could of had 4 or 5 finalist ended up producing none. 

[headshuck 2,600]

A better example would be Nelson 2 years ago. Many have said his 3 finals appearances were vs inferior competition at HWT than prior 3xers like Konrad.

[Plasmodium 2,255]

So the question morphed into what are Taylor's highest quality wins.  Caldwell, Fittery and Hatchett are all very accomplished wrestlers.

[LaxHawk174 40]

I don't think Taylors bracket in 2011 was easy, St John in the Quarters, Fittery in the semis, and Jenkins in the finals. And i'd say his 2013 finals match gave him some challenges.

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

I would say that Jenkins is the most overrated wrestler in the history of the NCAA, if not for remembering he beat Darrion Caldwell, who i think was pretty great. I still can't quit process that he cradled taylor like that, it was so bizarre and anti-climatic feeling.

 

I think fittery and st. john are both better than Jenkins, and would say taylors wins aren't very flashy, but he is defined more by bonus pointing guys like Kokesh. 

[MSU158 2,008]

Tigsy,

 

Go back and read your post. You said supposed to. Never did you say who was predicting what. I would think how you are seeded at the actual tournament is about the best measurement to determine who is "supposed" to do something. But, hey, that could just be me being a straw man.........

[Flying-Tiger 617]

Coming from the guy that guaranteed Kilmara would place top 5 next year, lol. 

[MSU158 2,008]

Top 8.  If you are going to quote me, get it right. I "guaranteed" he will AA and I said "look" for him to finish Top 5. And I will STICK by that!  Interested to see why you think it is funny to pick a returning 7th place finisher to AA again and most likely finish top 5.  But, then again, I don't expect your arguments to be cogent...............

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

I misread the title and thought this thread would be about whether or not Cael actually had an "undefeated" collegiate career. 

Nope... I never bother with posts like that. 

[xander 346]

 

 

Iowa kid beat cael during his RS year 1. Iowa kid has since passed away. I cannot remember his name. Who was that again?

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

Jen

[xander 346]

Paul Jen yep

[xander 346]

What was that score ? Where at?

[Plasmodium 2,255]

Iirc, 4-3 @ the uni open.

[Plasmodium 2,255]

Redundant

Edited August 12, 2015 by Plasmodium