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Spencer Lee

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Pretty sure Gilman just won a Bronze Medal at the World Level just last year, if FT wants to be so super technical about his discussion that Mike Zadick doesn't count because he wresteld 149 in college (although winning his World Silver at 132)....

McD won a bronze at University Worlds also.  

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I'm going to do something I rarely do around here and concede the point (re: word medals). That being said, I want to clarify that I'm not arguing that Iowa doesn't deveop their lightweights, my argument has always been that they are not the only program that is having a high level of success with their lower weights and a high end recruit doesn't need to go there to reach their goals. tOSU, OSU, Cornell & PSU are all just as viable an option, imo. Heck I guess I should add West Virginia to that list (can't believe I typed that) with Henson there. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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For no reason other than gut, I see Lee at Iowa, not PSU.

 

He always struck me as the classic Iowa type (admittedly, not many of those in the past few years). Supremely confident, really good conditioning, and always out for blood to the point of throwing caution to the wind. He's like A Valencia and Pico in that way, all three stand out like sore thumbs among the elite kids in HS not just because of their skill but mainly due to their attitudes. Look at the difference between Hall, the other "once in a generation" HS standout, who lost at the Worlds because he stood there doing jack, and Lee, who couldn't stop moving once he set foot on the mat, even before the whistle blew. (No offense to Hall, who I think is excellent when he actually wrestles.)

 

There's something about the PSU style that is more controlled and deliberate. It's obviously effective and something to emulate, but I see Suriano as more of a style fit there (controlled aggression) than Lee, who is more of a maverick in my eyes. I think Lee is closer to being a slicker, more talented (for his age) version of Metcalf or Ironside than another David Taylor or even a young Cael.

 

Lee also strikes me as the type of guy who would rather be a Logan Stieber at tOSU than a shining star on the PSU All-Star team.

 

I say this with no bias whatsoever and it's 100% my opinion just from watching Lee and hearing him talk.

 

Separately, speaking of bias, anyone suggesting Iowa cannot at least match if not exceed a lightweight's development is completely biased to the point of sheer lunacy. It is THE place for lightweights, with Oklahoma State also in the conversation. I highly doubt Lee or his advisors think he could find better training elsewhere. If Lee chooses PSU or any other place, it won't be because Iowa couldn't match the training environment.

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Wouldn't David Taylor's style be comparable to Spencer Lee's also?

 

Yes, since they're both incredible. But Taylor doesn't have the "I don't give a sht" attitude that Lee does. It seems that way because he blitzes through almost everyone, but when he faces truly elite competition, he slows down considerably and becomes timid. I've never seen Lee timid, even in losing. After he lost to Fix this summer and was shocked, he came out like gangbusters again before losing the second time.

 

DT's offense seems very well-practiced and rehearsed to me. It's less instinctual, more part of a Cael-like system where there's a solid foundation (tie-up plus a couple of high percentage go-to TDs) from which everything happens. I've seen Lee pull moves out of his ass on sheer instinct or athleticism. His style seems less rehearsed to me, and more of an instinctual response to whatever he can grab on the way to the mat for his next turn. I saw this sequence this weekend: snapdown/short offense, to butt drag (missed), to near arm far leg (missed), to ankle pick (hit) that transitioned to fireman's carry (missed) that transitioned to hi-c for the TD right to a leg lace. That can't be rehearsed. He's stringing sht together on the fly,

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Just find it incredible that someone on here is calling Iowa's style of wrestling athletic and instinctual, as compared to PSU's style as deliberate and controlled. Might be the first time in the past 5 years this has been written anywhere, including the HR forum.

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Well in defense of the assertion, PSU's reputation in this regard is the product of freak athletes, which Iowa just now seems to be getting interested in. If you watch Cory Clark wrestle Jimmy Gulibon it's a right on comment.

 

Basically you can't just compare their high profile guys, it holds a lot more water when you think of ten weights standing across from ten weights.  

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Well in defense of the assertion, PSU's reputation in this regard is the product of freak athletes, which Iowa just now seems to be getting interested in. If you watch Cory Clark wrestle Jimmy Gulibon it's a right on comment.

 

Basically you can't just compare their high profile guys, it holds a lot more water when you think of ten weights standing across from ten weights.  

 

So you basically just pulled one example out (Gulibon vs. Clark) to prove your point that you can't cherry pick examples, lol.  And it's not a great example at that.

 

The high profile guys are the point.  And what examples of these "freak" athletes do you have that Iowa either has or is just now getting interested in?  Marinelli, lol.  Maybe you are talking about 2 2017 guys who are over a year away from signing their LOIs and 3 years away from seeing the mat.  I would argue against their being athletic "freaks" but maybe that is what you are talking about.  How about currently on the team?  I just don't see it.

 

PSU about to throw another high motor free wheeling guy into the mix next year with Nolf.  As well as a high-risk/high reward guy in Nickal.  To go along with guys that just came through like DT, Ruth, QW.  Throw in high motor Megaludis.

 

This is an argument to bail out of...

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You took a mild post which said nothing more than that another post wasn't as crazy as it sounds, interpreted it as a crazed manifesto, inserted a bunch of implications i didn't, and responded like a smug tool....

 

I disagree.  He made a comment in TWO posts which asserted that PSU's style was controlled and deliberate and that Lee was more of a product of athleticism and instinct (which is off base about Lee anyway, lol).

 

I made a joke about this.  IMO, a well deserved joke.

 

You then tried to defend it by giving Gulibon-Clark as an example, downplaying the high profile guys and then saying you need to look across all ten weights to see that it holds more water.  What did I mistake about your implication?

 

I seriously can't believe I'm arguing with someone, anyone, about this.

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I disagree.  He made a comment in TWO posts which asserted that PSU's style was controlled and deliberate and that Lee was more of a product of athleticism and instinct (which is off base about Lee anyway, lol).

 

I made a joke about this.  IMO, a well deserved joke.

 

You then tried to defend it by giving Gulibon-Clark as an example, downplaying the high profile guys and then saying you need to look across all ten weights to see that it holds more water.  What did I mistake about your implication?

 

I seriously can't believe I'm arguing with someone, anyone, about this.

 

You're wrong. That's not exactly what I'm saying.

 

I think Cael teaches a system that is patterned after his own success (no surprise) based on a system of wrestling he developed. He goes into technique at a level of depth I have rarely seen. Everything about Cael's wrestling, at least to me, feels very deliberate and practiced. He attacks a certain way and sets up his attacks a certain way the vast majority of the time. If you have ever sat in on a technique clinic, you'll know what I mean. He is surprisingly focused on little details which he covers in great depth. It's like he's teaching surgical procedures.

 

Taylor is the consummate example of the type of guy who will excel in that kind of system. His wrestling is often described as poetry in motion because when the system works, he is unstoppable. This isn't just exclusively a Cael/PSU thing. I feel John Smith and Okie State are comparable in their approach in a lot of ways. JO is a perfect example of a highly successful product of that type of system.

 

But in my view, there are other types of guys who do better with a less prescribed approach to wrestling. Examples are guys like the Askrens, Ironside--all very different wrestlers technically. Their styles, at least to me, were more focused on putting their opponents in uncomfortable situations they could then exploit. For the Askrens, it was scrambling. For Ironside, it was a physical, "second half" focus. Etc.

 

Look at the way Cael wrestled and the way the Brands wrestled. Both approaches are excellent, but they are different. To me, Cael's approach was much more systematic, while the Brands had less of an agenda for each match. An interview with Alan Fried done a while back summed it up best. Brands would just find a way to win. That was his key trait. Cael planned and executed his wins more, in my mind. I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. Actually, I prefer the Cael approach more because I can personally relate to it more.

 

But Lee reminds me more of how the top Iowa guys wrestled than the way Cael, DT, etc. wrestled. He has more of a honey badger approach that I think will flourish more under the Iowa system.

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You're wrong. That's not exactly what I'm saying.

 

I think Cael teaches a system that is patterned after his own success (no surprise) based on a system of wrestling he developed. He goes into technique at a level of depth I have rarely seen. Everything about Cael's wrestling, at least to me, feels very deliberate and practiced. He attacks a certain way and sets up his attacks a certain way the vast majority of the time. If you have ever sat in on a technique clinic, you'll know what I mean. He is surprisingly focused on little details which he covers in great depth. It's like he's teaching surgical procedures.

 

Taylor is the consummate example of the type of guy who will excel in that kind of system. His wrestling is often described as poetry in motion because when the system works, he is unstoppable. This isn't just exclusively a Cael/PSU thing. I feel John Smith and Okie State are comparable in their approach in a lot of ways. JO is a perfect example of a highly successful product of that type of system.

 

But in my view, there are other types of guys who do better with a less prescribed approach to wrestling. Examples are guys like the Askrens, Ironside--all very different wrestlers technically. Their styles, at least to me, were more focused on putting their opponents in uncomfortable situations they could then exploit. For the Askrens, it was scrambling. For Ironside, it was a physical, "second half" focus. Etc.

 

Look at the way Cael wrestled and the way the Brands wrestled. Both approaches are excellent, but they are different. To me, Cael's approach was much more systematic, while the Brands had less of an agenda for each match. An interview with Alan Fried done a while back summed it up best. Brands would just find a way to win. That was his key trait. Cael planned and executed his wins more, in my mind. I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. Actually, I prefer the Cael approach more because I can personally relate to it more.

 

But Lee reminds me more of how the top Iowa guys wrestled than the way Cael, DT, etc. wrestled. He has more of a honey badger approach that I think will flourish more under the Iowa system.

 

Well, how do you explain a guy like QW then who excelled under Cael?

 

I have certainly sat in on technique clinics and it is no surprise that Cael is extremely detailed oriented.

 

I think you are off base on Lee in this.  Although, obviously he is very athletic, he is extremely well coached and disciplined.  Technique is at a very high level and this - combined with the fact that he is freakishly strong - is the reason for his success.  Maybe his pace is reminiscent of a honey badger, but nothing else about his wrestling is.  When I think of athletic and instinct like you are describing, I think more of a guy like Fix than Lee.

 

I'm sure he will excel under Brand OR Cael.  Just do not agree with anything you've posted here, but you are entitled to your opinion.  Thanks for clarifying but I still think the joke was a good one, lol.  

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How about Matt Brown, the guy was extremely physical. He ground his opponents down with strength, conditioning and just enough technique. I don't think too many people would compare him to Cael style wise, yet he thrived under him.

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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What does technique have anything to do with what I said? My point was one of a systematic approach versus one that is more based on "whatever goes". Again, one is not better than the other, although two of the most successful Americans ever--Smith and Cael--both leveraged a more systematic approach. 

 

Of course Lee has great technique. I never said he was great in spite of a lack of technique or discipline. I said his attitude, his approach to a match, is more reminiscent of elite Iowa style than something I'd expect out of a Cael disciple. All the examples of the guys Lee reminded me of had elite-level technique. 

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How about Matt Brown, the guy was extremely physical. He ground his opponents down with strenght, conditioning and just enough technique. I don't think too many people would compare him to Cael style wise, yet he thrived under him.

 

Sure, and Mark Perry thrived under Brands despite having a very different approach. That's why both guys are two of the best coaches in the country.

 

My point was more about fit. Lee can't go wrong here. He will be successful under any coach, let alone two of the handful of guys who can be considered the absolute best in the entire country. 

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Well, how do you explain a guy like QW then who excelled under Cael?

 

See post immediately above. I explain it by saying Cael is a great coach. As is Brands, who coached many guys who thrived under him despite not following his own style to the T.

 

My point was one of best fit among several great choices. Do you think a guy like Lee will be materially less successful going to, say, Ohio State or Cornell, both schools that I didn't even mention? I don't think he'd be that much better or worse off as far as college is concerned. But Lee will probably make a choice wtih career in mind, not just 4-5 years of folkstyle. And I think he will do best under the Iowa system.

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The first time I saw him in person I told my kid that Lee has B+ talent and A+ aggression which puts even great defensive wrestlers on their heels. Most of the time it is the other way around. I still think that's the case but he does improve every year and I can't wait until his talent matches his aggression. He's going to be scary good.  

 

I'm speaking strictly about folkstyle here since this is on a college board.

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The first time I saw him in person I told my kid that Lee has B+ talent and A+ aggression which puts even great defensive wrestlers on their heels. Most of the time it is the other way around. I still think that's the case but he does improve every year and I can't wait until his talent matches his aggression. He's going to be scary good.  

 

I'm speaking strictly about folkstyle here since this is on a college board.

 

I don't know about B+, but I do agree thematically, and that was the key point I was making. He is the chief honey badger of HS wrestling.

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Just find it incredible that someone on here is calling Iowa's style of wrestling athletic and instinctual, as compared to PSU's style as deliberate and controlled. Might be the first time in the past 5 years this has been written anywhere, including the HR forum.

 

It's like Nerd read that the Brands brothers can't coach lightweights and decided to come up with an even more absurd claim. Hat tip to you, Nerd!

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Nerd if you watch him closely he makes a lot of position mistakes, both hand and foot, but since he always moving forward at such an extreme pace it never matters. I think that will always be the case since both high speed and extreme technique are dichotomous.

 

Still I like him over the very slow and methodical highly technical wrestlers who never make a mistake but win 1-0.  

Edited by Zebra

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Josh Dziewa didn't exactly thrive under the Brands tutelage. Haha

 

NO one here knows where the best place for Spencer Lee is, and the only reason people think they know where the best fit for him is cause they want him on "their" team.

 

I would love for him to be in a PSU singlet obviously, but who am I to say that is the best place for him? Iowa, PSU, tOSU, Okie State, etc could all give him an excellent training experience. I have no clue where he ends up going eventually, but I am pretty darn sure he will be a star wherever he goes. The kid loves wrestling. And no matter where he ends up, I am going to root for him. I love his style of wrestling.

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Mike Evans is a classic example of Brands coaching.

Always burned out at Nationals.

Evans reached the semifinals each of the last two seasons and both times lost to the eventual champ. He also made it to the quarters in 2013, but lost to Storley, who he as a senior finally managed to get over the hump and pick up wins against. He lost to some pretty tough guys in 2014 and 2015.

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