Jump to content
Housebuye

Spencer Lee

Recommended Posts

How he wrestles or what his style reminds you of won't necessarily dictate where he goes a ton of people were saying Suriano wrestled that Hawkeye style and as of now he's heading to Penn State speaking for my favorite team I'd love to see him as a Buckeye NaTo will be a senior when he's a freshman which would give him the chance to redshirt as not everyone wants to jump right in to competition he'd have some of the best partners on the team to work with as well as Stieber and Rosselli and Jaggers are proven lightweight coaches but he could end up anywhere there's a few posters on HR who find it odd Suriano postponed his expected commitment and then made it after Lee won a Jr World title before announcing he was PSU bound so maybe he doesn't end up at Penn State

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nerd, I typically enjoy your analysis, but your ideas about Iowa and Penn State I have never heard before anywhere. Cael Sanderson teaches his wrestlers to go for bonus points in every match. To keep working until the final second. 

 

Brands is a good coach too, but I see more aggression for scoring from Cael's wrestlers than from any other college program. It helped Penn State to win 4 NCAA titles. Hard to argue those results. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nerd, I typically enjoy your analysis, but your ideas about Iowa and Penn State I have never heard before anywhere. Cael Sanderson teaches his wrestlers to go for bonus points in every match. To keep working until the final second. 

 

Brands is a good coach too, but I see more aggression for scoring from Cael's wrestlers than from any other college program. It helped Penn State to win 4 NCAA titles. Hard to argue those results. 

 

And precisely what are those ideas? I'm talking about what I actually wrote, not what some guys said I wrote. Nothing I said has anything to do with bonus points or working hard for seven minutes.

 

My "idea" is not even an idea, it's just an observation, and it boils down to this. I think Cael teaches a more systematic style of wrestling than Brands. For some wrestlers, that is manna. But others could thrive more with a different focus. I personally think Lee is one of them. Similarly I don't think Taylor would've done as well under a different coach in college and I don't think Metcalf would've done as well under a different coach either, which is why I used them as examples. Both were comparably exceptional coming out of HS, but their approach to wrestling was different and I think they correctly chose the coach best for them respectively. When I say Lee reminds me more of a Metcalf than a Taylor, in no way am I taking anything away from anyone, and certainly not Cael. It is just an observation without any team bias.

 

Obviously, what Cael preaches is extremely effective, and I never said otherwise. I even said I prefer a systematic approach to coaching. Nevertheless, the Iowa style is also very effective, and in my opinion, it emphasizes different things. I think Tom and Terry Brands are the best coaches in the country for a certain type of wrestler with a certain attitude and approach to the sport. They are not as good as their mentor Gable was at getting inside literally anyone's head, but for those perfect fits, they are more effective than anyone else. I think Lee is one of them. The same can be said of Cael and other elite recruits, I'm sure.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Lee's favorite form of offense is to lock into a collar tie and spend 7 minutes trying to drive his opponent off the mat, then Iowa should be his No. 1 choice.  Otherwise, there are a half dozen better options, at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Lee's favorite form of offense is to lock into a collar tie and spend 7 minutes trying to drive his opponent off the mat, then Iowa should be his No. 1 choice.  Otherwise, there are a half dozen better options, at least.

 

You're right, that's all the Brands ever teach. They've never had any success coaching kids to do anything else, especially lightweights. I take everything I said about Lee and Iowa back. Lee would do best by picking a school's name out of a hat that excludes only Iowa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing more to say on where Spencer Lee needs to go to college (or OTC) since that argument grew stale before the third page. 

 

I do think that people overrate the perceived reputation of the Iowa style and (less so) the same for Penn State based on the face of the program - in this case Brent Metcalf and David Taylor.  Both guys were extremely active in different ways, and maybe WNerd is partly right that Taylor has been more methodical than the no-holds barred approach encouraged by Brands.  Personally I think that's too simplistic.  Metcalf, when facing the most elite competition at the international level has adjusted his style as well - that's what the best wrestlers have to do.  Taylor and Metcalf NEVER did that in college, but when facing the best worldwide if your results aren't working then adjustments make sense. 

 

Spencer Lee's domination and skill level for his age is absolutely insane.  However, I think it's apples to oranges to compare a 110 Junior dominating to Taylor's competition of Burroughs, Dake and Tsargush.  After his sophomore season Taylor got destroyed by Howe and pinned by Dake in FS - until Spencer Lee faces competition at that level then how do we know he wouldn't make similar adjustments (in this case advisable IMO) in the same circumstances?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course our assessments are simplistic. Not only are we all a bunch of wrestling nobodies typing away on an Internet forum, it is impossible to not talk about wrestling in a simplistic way. What else can we do other than simplify? When is any discussion on this board anything but simplifying what we watch for entertainment?

 

Even Lee doesn't know what style he'll develop three or six years from now. Doesn't mean we can't have opinions about how he wrestles today. I thought that was the whole point of this forum.

 

As for the perceived influence of a coach on an athlete, sure, no coach can single-handedly "make" an athlete. But when you have the raw talent of a guy like Lee and you are looking to optimize your college choice with Olympic gold, and not just NCAA titles, in mind, who you pick as your coach and your workout partners matters a whole lot. You're picking the environment in which you'll experience by far the most progression of your life as you go from boy to man and complete your "10,000th hour" of deliberate practice. In broad platitudes, it may be true that a program's "style" is overrated as a factor in an ahltete's development, but in the most elite of cases, I disagree. I think who you pick to coach you during your most formative years of your wrestling career matters a lot. This is why you see some of these elite guys forfeiting eligibility to find their optimal environment. The two guys you mentioned, Metcalf and Taylor, both did it, though Taylor was lucky and didn't have to forfeit a year. Micic did it this year. And so on.

 

I don't really understand your point about Taylor losing to Dake and Howe... how is that relevant to where Lee will train? Is your point that when really good kids face tough competition that's better than them, they need to adjust? I mean, is that even a point? Isn't that the crux of the petty fantasy arguments we have on this board about guys like Lee, that he's more likely to adjust better under School X versus School Y? 

 

Nobody is comparing Lee's domination of the junior worlds to Taylor going against Burroughs. The discussion is about which school would be best for Lee, nothing more. And as if it's not obvious, there is no right answer. It's all a bunch of hot air that we fans emit purely for fun. Even Lee can't tell you which coach is best for him. The proof will be in the pudding many years from now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And precisely what are those ideas? I'm talking about what I actually wrote, not what some guys said I wrote. Nothing I said has anything to do with bonus points or working hard for seven minutes.

 

My "idea" is not even an idea, it's just an observation, and it boils down to this. I think Cael teaches a more systematic style of wrestling than Brands. For some wrestlers, that is manna. But others could thrive more with a different focus. I personally think Lee is one of them. Similarly I don't think Taylor would've done as well under a different coach in college and I don't think Metcalf would've done as well under a different coach either, which is why I used them as examples. Both were comparably exceptional coming out of HS, but their approach to wrestling was different and I think they correctly chose the coach best for them respectively. When I say Lee reminds me more of a Metcalf than a Taylor, in no way am I taking anything away from anyone, and certainly not Cael. It is just an observation without any team bias.

 

Obviously, what Cael preaches is extremely effective, and I never said otherwise. I even said I prefer a systematic approach to coaching. Nevertheless, the Iowa style is also very effective, and in my opinion, it emphasizes different things. I think Tom and Terry Brands are the best coaches in the country for a certain type of wrestler with a certain attitude and approach to the sport. They are not as good as their mentor Gable was at getting inside literally anyone's head, but for those perfect fits, they are more effective than anyone else. I think Lee is one of them. The same can be said of Cael and other elite recruits, I'm sure.

 

 

 

Lee will thrive regardless of where he goes simply because he is "that" good. No knock on Hall or anyone else, but Spencer is the best high wrestler in the country right now. His World Junior Championship speaks to that. 

 

Also, should he choose Penn State not only will he thrive personally, but unless something totally unforeseen happens he will be a part of another 4 year team title run with Penn State. 

 

As for your point about styles, again, I disagree. Penn State has had different wrestlers achieve the ultimate college success doing things totally different from other wrestlers at Penn State. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course our assessments are simplistic. Not only are we all a bunch of wrestling nobodies typing away on an Internet forum, it is impossible to not talk about wrestling in a simplistic way. What else can we do other than simplify? When is any discussion on this board anything but simplifying what we watch for entertainment?

 

Even Lee doesn't know what style he'll develop three or six years from now. Doesn't mean we can't have opinions about how he wrestles today. I thought that was the whole point of this forum.

 

As for the perceived influence of a coach on an athlete, sure, no coach can single-handedly "make" an athlete. But when you have the raw talent of a guy like Lee and you are looking to optimize your college choice with Olympic gold, and not just NCAA titles, in mind, who you pick as your coach and your workout partners matters a whole lot. You're picking the environment in which you'll experience by far the most progression of your life as you go from boy to man and complete your "10,000th hour" of deliberate practice. In broad platitudes, it may be true that a program's "style" is overrated as a factor in an ahltete's development, but in the most elite of cases, I disagree. I think who you pick to coach you during your most formative years of your wrestling career matters a lot. This is why you see some of these elite guys forfeiting eligibility to find their optimal environment. The two guys you mentioned, Metcalf and Taylor, both did it, though Taylor was lucky and didn't have to forfeit a year. Micic did it this year. And so on.

 

I don't really understand your point about Taylor losing to Dake and Howe... how is that relevant to where Lee will train? Is your point that when really good kids face tough competition that's better than them, they need to adjust? I mean, is that even a point? Isn't that the crux of the petty fantasy arguments we have on this board about guys like Lee, that he's more likely to adjust better under School X versus School Y? 

 

Nobody is comparing Lee's domination of the junior worlds to Taylor going against Burroughs. The discussion is about which school would be best for Lee, nothing more. And as if it's not obvious, there is no right answer. It's all a bunch of hot air that we fans emit purely for fun. Even Lee can't tell you which coach is best for him. The proof will be in the pudding many years from now.

 

 

 

This is spot on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If he is good enough to go anywhere and win, then he should go to Old Dominion, or Wisconsin, or somewhere that he would be the greatest of all time, not just another guy up.  

 

 

 

I would think he'd still wish to improve at the fastest rate possible and I don't think ODU or UW is that place, but perhaps I am wrong. If you (and I, I suppose) are saying that the school or head coach really matters in the pace and magnitude of his improvement then I think it comes down to the school or coach he likes best. Here are some quotes from Nick Suriano on why he chose Penn State. Maybe Spencer Lee will feel similarly to Suriano.

 

Success breeds success “My Dad always says that to me”

 

“I want to associate myself with winners and people that are the best at what they do so that I can become the best. I am on that path.”

 

“The whole coaching staff is quality,” Suriano said. (Cael’s) brother Cody is a two-time national finalist. Casey Cunningham is an NCAA Champion and their coaching staff is just so qualified. These guys are top-notch, but you just don’t hear about them because Cael is such a big name.”

“I want to be a four-time National Champion, win Olympic and World titles so I need to be around the best,” 

 

“I need to be around the best wrestlers, I need to get a good education and I want to be in a good place where the school is sports-minded.”

 

“I wanted the best of the best, and I believe Penn State is the best of the best” 

 

“I’m working and training hard to shut out all opponents. I want to raise expectations for myself this year.”

 

 

Something tells me that Spencer Lee and Nick Suriano would get along great at Penn State.

Edited by TBar1977

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lee will thrive regardless of where he goes simply because he is "that" good. No knock on Hall or anyone else, but Spencer is the best high wrestler in the country right now. His World Junior Championship speaks to that. 

 

Also, should he choose Penn State not only will he thrive personally, but unless something totally unforeseen happens he will be a part of another 4 year team title run with Penn State. 

 

As for your point about styles, again, I disagree. Penn State has had different wrestlers achieve the ultimate college success doing things totally different from other wrestlers at Penn State. 

 

I agree with that. If you go back and re-read what I actually wrote, I make the same point myself. I say Lee will do well anywhere. If Lee really does end up at PSU, then I too am signing up for the possibility of another four year team title run for PSU, as you say, given how heavily stacked with studs PSU already is and their pace of top recruiting commitments..

 

But you could say similar things about how Iowa has developed a wide range of guys too. They have had a wide variety of wrestlers do very well, even if you just include the Brands years. They obviously didn't win it all while Cael was winning, but it's not like the Brands don't know how to win national titles either. There was a comparison chart on the Iowa site a few weeks ago on the success rate of active coaches throughout their careers and Brands had the best stats in most categories.

 

Where I differ is at the margin. I never said Iowa is the only school that fits. I never said PSU can't develop kids who wrestle differently than he does. Of course they can, which is why they're the best team of the past half a decade or so by a mile. But if we're going to pick nits, which is the nature of these types of discussions, and we're thinking about how Lee could optimize a choice among several great (yes, I said great) options, I feel Iowa has the edge. I think Lee wrestles with the type of aggression and mindset that the Brands are famous for coaching particularly well, all the way to the Olympic level. 

 

You being a PSU fan, will of course disagree. But that's why we have opinions and I specifically started my first post saying mine was mainly due to gut. We're predicting where some kid none of us knows will go to school. How can anyone's post on this thread be anything more than gut? People act like my opinion is wrong simply because they think theirs is right, which is laughable. Some others make sht up and say I said things like Lee is not technically proficient and is successful mainly due to athleticism, or PSU can only coach Cael clones, or whatever else. In reality, I just threw my opinion in there just like everyone else, it just happened to be an unpopular one. 

 

Where is the big controversy in saying the coaches who have had the most success coaching lightweights at all levels, from college to senior world, who also happen to be famous for sharing Lee's mind set, might be the best fit? I don't get it.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are just disagreeing with your premise here, wrestlingnerd. 

 

No true Penn State fan would concede that Iowa coaches lightweights or any weights "better" than Penn State. Iowa had a few stud lightweights in the past several years while Cael Sanderson was still building the Penn State ;program  into the juggernaut that it currently is right now, but that hardly means Sanderson is any less of a lightweights coach. 

 

The reason why I posted Suriano's comments is that what you are saying on this subject was said about Suriano as well. Hawk Report repeated these things over and over with regards to his recruitment, and look where he committed to? Penn State. I truly believe Spencer Lee is going to do the exact same thing. Penn State will need a 125 and I think he will fill that spot. I believe that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that Suriano committed to PSU has nothing to do with the optimal program for Lee. I actually don't  think they wrestle the same way or even similarly. I DO think Suriano too would've been a particularly good fit at Iowa, and I'm sure the Hawk fans were making all kinds of homer comments about him as you suggest.

 

That doesn't change what I said. On past results with lightweights, the group the brands personally work with the most given their own weights, which includes very recent results, on mind set, and on stylistic fit, I just see Lee as more of an Iowa guy than anything else. I'm not even predicting that he'll go to Iowa. I'm merely stating I see him at Iowa as far as fit goes. I really have no idea where he'll end up.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If he is good enough to go anywhere and win, then he should go to Old Dominion, or Wisconsin, or somewhere that he would be the greatest of all time, not just another guy up.  

might take some doing to be greatest of all time at Wisconsin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was actually kidding about UW and ODU because it was stated that he could go anywhere. (Two good programs none the less)  That being said, If guys like this only go to the top schools, does anyone else ever move in and if so how?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...