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Tofurky

Seventh as a team

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Obviously training in Freestyle is of paramount importance, but if you look at Burroughs (and now Green ) as to the reason why they are successful, I think it's how they wrestle. They move around and shoot from the outside, they' shoot from their knees, as well as move side to side. This style causes their opponents fits. The wrestlers from the other countries want to hang on to them so they can control the action. The style Burroughs and now Green use does not allow this as much as these other wrestlers would like.

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the true separation in freestlye comes from par terre... folk does nothing but hurt that aspect of the US's game...

 

what was the deciding factor of Lee's junior gold?

the fact that he went from takedown to exposure immediately...

 

that is where we should be heading as a country...

par terre is the difference between good and great...

folk does fuk all to promote effective par terre offense...

 

and we will suffer internationally until that changes...

 

folk style killed the olympic dream!

Par terre is important, but it is not just par terre following a takedown.  It is fluidity of positions and exposurein general.  Watch how people from other countries (Russia, Mongolia, Iran, Aze)  transition beautifully from one hold to another and score exposure points that we never get.  An American wrestling freestyle is always going for the 2 point takedown, and is forced to wrestle in a box when worried about the possibility of exposure.  That is why guys largely become so defensive.  They only have a set few positions that they are comfortable in, since they haven't been exposed to freestyle.  

 

Think about Ben Askren...He developed a unique and effective style in folkstyle that was useless in freestyle.  What if he had been given years to develop his freestyle instead of being forced to transition in two?  Watch Herbert, Metcalf, and Ramos wrestle freestyle against international competition..He is clearly not comfortable.  

 

 

Obviously training in Freestyle is of paramount importance, but if you look at Burroughs (and now Green ) as to the reason why they are successful, I think it's how they wrestle. They move around and shoot from the outside, they' shoot from their knees, as well as move side to side. This style causes their opponents fits. The wrestlers from the other countries want to hang on to them so they can control the action. The style Burroughs and now Green use does not allow this as much as these other wrestlers would like.

Exactly.  Two of our three best wrestlers disengage from ties/wrestling and try to stay on the outside most of the match.  This is more effective than our guys who are used to tying up, because we will always lose when it comes to freestyle slickness against wrestlers who have been wrestling freestyle their entire lives.  
 
Keith Gavin is a great example.  He was very effective tying up and wrestling a slick style against many americans..But has had very little success against those more accustomed to freestyle
Edited by Billyhoyle

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LBJ, does have a point about Spencer Lee, I saw the Heavyweight Turkish wrestler use that style today and he tech a Russian legend and then teched the guy from Azerbijan in the finals. I really think that a lot of this game is getting on the gas pedal and staying there.

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No, what killed the Olympic dream is the ioc and their reduction of weight classes. Also, if there was a true double elimination format we would likely see an immediate change in US performance. We will never see a wholesale switch to freestyle in our HS and college ranks. The other thing you aren't considering is how often fila/uww changes the rules. We would have complete clusterfcks in high school college officials meetings.

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No, what killed the Olympic dream is the ioc and their reduction of weight classes. Also, if there was a true double elimination format we would likely see an immediate change in US performance. We will never see a wholesale switch to freestyle in our HS and college ranks. The other thing you aren't considering is how often fila/uww changes the rules. We would have complete clusterfcks in high school college officials meetings.

Saying that double elimination will help the US makes no sense.  What good did it do for Tony Ramos or Reece?  We have trouble winning matches.  Wrestling more matches won't solve that problem.  

 

And we wouldn't have to follow every UWW/FILA rule change.  Simply pick a version of freestyle that we like and keep it until there are major change.s  

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After Dlagnev dropped out, I only expected one medal. Two medals of any color was an absolute best case scenario. Two golds and a bronze is beyond what I thought was realistic. So as far as I'm concerned, the men's freestyle did an incredible job. Here's a breakdown of each wrestler's performance:

 

57- Ramos. He performed as expected. I was happy he put himself in a position to beat Rahimi. A few small adjustments and he would have won. But when all is said and done, he's not top four in the world. 

 

61kg- Humphrey. He gutted out a win over Kazakhstan. Then he lost to a better wrestler. No shame there. 

 

65kg- Metcalf. Better than expected. he had a brutal draw. The Chinese wrestler was a pure stud, and Metcalf survived him. Then he lost to number one ranked Iran narrowly. He got unlucky when the Iranian was later pinned when he made a mistake. Medaling was not out of the question, but winning three matches is by far his performance ever. Previously, his best performance was 1-1. So I think Metcalf performed better than his past performances suggested he would. 

 

70kg- Green. At the high end of what we expected. A bronze medal your first time out (and fresh out of college) is phenomenal. 

 

75kg- Burroughs. Let's just take in the glory.

 

86kg- Herbert. Performed as expected. Lost to a better wrestler. 

 

97kg- Snyder. Performed way better than expected. I thought he was on track to be a medalist in the next few years. But I did not see him winning gold at the age of 19. Nobody did. Absolutely phenomenal. 

 

125kg- Rey. Performed as expected. Ran into a better wrestler. 

 

 

There's really not much more to say. Our guys performed at or above expectations. Honestly, it was a good showing. 

Edited by Katie

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In the grand scheme of life, I don't care. I still have to go to work Monday morning, my 18 year old daughter is still addicted to drugs and life still sucks. It was a fun distraction for a few days, but has no real impact on my life one way or the other. So you got your wish Bryant, I am signing off for good and you can still go fck yourself.

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In the grand scheme of life, I don't care. I still have to go to work Monday morning, my 18 year old daughter is still addicted to drugs and life still sucks. It was a fun distraction for a few days, but has no real impact on my life one way or the other. So you got your wish Bryant, I am signing off for good and you can still go fck yourself.

This is the most epic/sad post that I have ever seen on this forum.  And where did Bryant come into this?

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C'mon Katie, don't say nobody picked Synder to win Gold. Some of us actually did.

 

After meeting him, and shaking his hand at BTS right after he wrestled Gatsalov, I knew this kid was special.

 

Keep up the excellent work Kyle!

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I like Katie's analysis. I said before all this started that if we got three medals in Men's Freestyle we would've had a great showing. I thought like everybody did, that Burroughs was a lock, but I thought the other medals would come from Metcalf and Snyder. My thoughts were based on Brent's World Cups performances, the Pan Am's I thought he would finally get it done. I thought Snyder would be competitive with the likes of the Ukranian and the Georgian, which I believed put him in the hunt for a Bronze. I knew Green was good but I didn't think he would do as well as he did.

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A quick way to take away the "luck of the draw" aspect for gauging team performance is to tally up how many matches were won by each nation against the 28 nations who genuinely invest in freestyle and who have a legitimate chance to win matches (http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/7685-computer-ratings-for-international-mens-freestyle-nations/). Matches won against all other nations are meaningless because the top 10 nations win over 95% of their matches against those not from the "core 28".

 

2015 World Championships match win totals for the world's Top 15 nations (as proven over the last 5 years) against "core 28" teams (http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/7685-computer-ratings-for-international-mens-freestyle-nations/):

 

Russia 29

Iran 23

Georgia 17

United States 17

Azerbaijan 16

Turkey 14

Mongolia 14

Ukraine 13

Bulgaria 9

India 8

Uzbekistan 6

Belarus 5

Cuba 4 (9 with Chamizo)

Kazakhstan 4

Japan 4

 

Mongolia's UWW team score, for example, is misleading because they were pushed into several nice scoring positions being propped up by 6 matches against "gift" teams (non-core 28).  Their overall record was only 14-11 against real teams, while the U.S. was 17-8 against real teams, but only faced 3 non-core 28 teams and didn't get pushed toward the same "gift" placements in a couple places.

Edited by maligned

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let's face it, Hump, Herbert, and Rey did nothing...when weights are limited and you have 3 guys scoring ZERO points individually or for the team, what do you expect?

 

and while Ramos and Metcalf only did as expected, they would've needed to do something special..... you can't expect to be top 3 or 4. 

 

we can still take away quite a few positives from this year. 

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all it is valuable for is a piece of paper... if you think our universities are about anything more than making money i feel sorry for you indeed... they are about making relationships... my feeling is that you can do that by competing and being relevant on the international stage in this sport just as well as you can by paying for a piece of paper...

 

Try explaining it to your kids when employers won't even interview them for job openings without a college degree.

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LJB, on 13 Sept 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

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all it is valuable for is a piece of paper... if you think our universities are about anything more than making money i feel sorry for you indeed... they are about making relationships... my feeling is that you can do that by competing and being relevant on the international stage in this sport just as well as you can by paying for a piece of paper...

Try explaining it to your kids when employers won't even interview them for job openings without a college degree.

 

 

LJB, you have a good point about an international athlete's expanded perspective, relationships, etc. Couple that with any degree at all, and you have someone with a great story who can also tell it and sell it well, in a variety of forms, to a variety of people. They will have seen the world through the lens of a variety of other cultures, and through the eyes of a scientist, sociologist, psychologist, historian, artist, and writer etc. They will have relationships with athletes from all over the world and with people in professional fields that have nothing to do with athletics. 

The piece of paper says you've seen those things and know how too satisfy that spread of professionals. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it is the single greatest indicator of a person's income potential. There are exceptions, but that's why we call some people exceptional. 

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With the double Bronze system, the US should be getting a piece of at least 6 weight classes if not more. Meaning we should have 4 or 5 medals of any color, with 5th places interspersed. Folkstyle isn't the enemy, it's not being able to adapt that is hurting.

 

 

Can you explain why the US should be performing at the level you mention?  What is it that makes you believe the US just should be?

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I was very happy with the US perfromance.  

 

Coming in I expected 1 medal (Burroughs top 3) and thought we may be able to get another from either Humphrey, Snyder, or Green.

 

I expected nothing from Herbert (he delivered) Rey (he delivered) or Ramos (he far exceeded expectations)

 

I was disappointed in Humphrey, but blown away by Snyder and Green

 

Metcalf performed exactly where I predicted 2 wins, 1 defeat and DNP

 

Throw in the performance by Robie Smith and this was a great worlds

 

If we could do the same at the Olympics next year, with reduced weights, I will be very happy and as a nation, we should all be very pleased with the result we got from what he sent out there.   

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To further the point that we didn't have the best draws: We lost exactly 2 matches to non-top 5 placers.

 

So we go 5-6 against Top 5 opponents and 15-2 against the rest.

I don't know what that has to do with draws, but reinforces that we are a 7th place team.

Beat the teams we should, but lose to top 6 wrestlers

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I hear a lot of people talking Snyder should quit College, which is worth over 500,000 dollars for an out of state degree. It make sno sense whatsoever.  If he skips college, sure he might tweak and improve his par tere slightly.  I am not sure he would get better on his feet though by skipping college. There are just too many looks that our guys can give him and the competition is just too good.  In our own country he has McIntosh and Cox, plus Benick and Stevenson and others coming in.  You have to compete, and there are just not enough freestyle events to really make the push. Not in this country anyway.  

Furthermore, you forget that the Iranians and Russians and others have indeed wrestled they're own countries' version of folkstyle-some country's folk wrestling have become huge like Sumo and Sambo. All of these other nations wrestle upper body as well. We don't. We really shy away from upper body control and go for high percentage shooting way way more. That kills us internationally, because stalling is called when you flee upper body holds. That is never called in our High School and College levels, and that is very week.  We call stalling based on the number of shots.  That is not effective, smart, or even a good indicator of if a guy is stalling.  Some guys shoot when they don't seem to be getting position.  We need to get better at positioning our shots and getting into those positions, and not just all trying to be the next John Smith. I wrestled in the ealy and mid 90s so I am very guilty of that fact.  But I do think we call too many matched based on the wrong kind of stalling.  

Canada loves getting they're athletes to compete in our folk.  Hungary loves it even better.  His results are mixed, but the MSU wrestler for Puerto Rico seems more freestylie than our own wrestlers.  Don't forget that one of the greatest wrestlers ever: Uetake won the Olympic gold for Japan in '68, skipped freestyle for 4 years, then won another Olympic Gold.  HIs first gold was in '64, he won NCAA championships in 64, 64, 66. Then won the gold again in 68.  When you are a good wrestler, you adapt.  

Also, Belagozov came here to coach Folkstyle after all of his world titles.  Miron K is rasing his kid in Folkstyle, but I assure you the kid will know par terre, which, again, isn't rocket science.  Gatsalov, whom Snyder wants a rematch with was a PE Student and teacher through his run.  

I don't think Fokstyle in itself is a problem. Actually, we do pretty good in the world considering where wrestling sits as a sport in our society. I was one of the very few former wrestlers that spent time watching this world championships.  MOst of my buddies that wrestled were only moderately interested.  My friends who have kids that wrestle spend all of their' time going to kids matches, and even high school, but pay very little attention to the big stuff.  Maybe in America we are too kid-centered. Evrything revolves around kids, whereas it sued to be kids did whatever they're parents were doing; they had no choice. In wrestling this,again, manifests into HUGE kids tournaments, where I'd adventure to guess that 5% pay any attention to College or International wrestling.  Scholarship money we are way behind other sports domestically, including ****ing golf and skateboarding.  It hurts.   Our best athletes, by and large, play football, basketball, baseball, and track and field.  Further, our society doesn't make it real inviting for big men to cut weight, compared to the other sports listed.  So we only have so many Americans willing to pay the price that it takes to become a champion.  

I still suggest, NOT skipping out on the ONE chance to make a living in wrestling, which is getting a degree.  The pinnacle of a wrestler's career in America is coaching a major college.  With the amount of booster revenue, the regional training center, and the amount of money in the economy, I can see no better long-term job for Kyle than head wrestling coach at OSU in about 15 years.  Nothing wrong with following Dan Gable, Bobby Douglas, John Smith, Kevin Jackson, Lou Roselli, Sammie Henson, Tom Brands, Russ Hellickson, Cael Sanderson, and others into coaching.  

Folkstyle could use a few tweaks: less stalling on the amount of shots, and more on the hand fighting and mat position, possibly with the pushout rule tried.  Also we need to really push our ties as a group of wrestlers.  

Other bottom line:  Iran Azerbaijan, Russia, etc.   these male athletes consider wrestling much higher up the chain (Football landslide no1, baseball, basketball, hockey, track ,golf, etc.)  than American athletes. Using an example from my beloved OSU: can you imagine taylor Decker, Braxton Miller, Joey Bosa, Darron Lee, Ezekial Ellliot, etc. wrestling?   Those guys are beasts, and every college isn't much different.  

Edited by Fishhook

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You make a good point about football athletes. They are amazing. But few football players could wrestle anything below 186. 

 

If we got footballers to wrestle heavy, they'd be awsome. In fact, many of our great heavies over the years later played in the NFL. But that's not true of any other weight.

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Try explaining it to your kids when employers won't even interview them for job openings without a college degree.

 

if your goal is to live in a cube, by all means, make that college money by playing the game... it is a really good option for some... torture for others... it is not the be all end all...

 

there are many athletes at the training centers who are pursuing international wrestling glory and still taking classes... there options... telling a kid the only option is to play the game they want you to is borderline abuse... 

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Degree or no degree, Kyle now can be a coach at the OTC for the rest of his life with that gold medal. If wrestling is all he wants to do, he has a job.

 

That said, If you're not among a very small degree of people who are professional wrestling coaches in the United States, and you don't want to do manual labor for the rest of your life, then completing college is a no brainer, especially when it is free of cost, and if you're doing what you should be doing in the classroom you can potentially squeeze a graduate degree out of it. That is something Snyder will NEVER regret having.

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