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Eagle26

Why are we so negative towards our wrestlers?

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I love reading these boards and appreciate all the great info, but it can really get depressing reading all the bashing of our own athletes! I know, I know, its a public forum, we all have the right to give our opinion. Well here is my opinion... when you have wrestlers and coaches representing your country in the world championships, you should get behind them and support them no matter what!

 

 

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I love reading these boards and appreciate all the great info, but it can really get depressing reading all the bashing of our own athletes! I know, I know, its a public forum, we all have the right to give our opinion. Well here is my opinion... when you have wrestlers and coaches representing your country in the world championships, you should get behind them and support them no matter what!

People have it in their mind that Americans should be the best in the world.  When guys like Metcalf, Ramos, and Herbert lose on the international stage, people assume it is because they haven't "opened up enough" or aren't "getting to their offense."  This assumption comes because they have been so dominant in domestic competition.  Most don't want to admit that our system fails to prepare these athletes for success against international competition, and they are simply being outclassed.  It is especially bad when they lose to people other than Russians or Iranians, or a guy who is one year removed from being a Junior...They don't realize that they may young, but they have many more years wrestling Freestyle than our best guys and are simply more slick and have better technique.  

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Just to show how bad some it has been I will go through our freestyle lineup and summarize what I mean...

 

Ramos - wrestled well and did better than expected. Basically had the silver medalist beat and gets bashed because he made one little mental error that cost him! 

 

Humphrey - We might have been hoping for more, but he had a great first round win and lost to a tough competitor. Should be nothing to complain about.

 

Metcalf - This is the one that bugs me the most. I am not an Iowa fan (at all!) but he has been our rep for the last several years and people keep bashing him. Sure he hasn't gotten a medal, but its not because he is not good! He has shown he can beat the best in the world (lost a very winnable one-point match to the #1 ranked wrestler). Wrestle that bracket another day and we could have all new medalists and Metcalf could certainly be one of them. I hope he finally gets his due in Rio. 

 

Green - I don't think anyone did or could say anything bad about his performance. However, many of us doubted him beforehand despite beating some very good competition in Marable and Chamizo. 

 

Burroughs - Only one we all seem to be positive towards. I guess you have to be one of the top 3 all-time in our country to earn our respect!

 

Herbert - I will admit I thought his performance was sub-par, but he is a great ambassador of our sport and he is the best we currently have. Some are claiming we should have brought Ruth instead, but even though Ruth might have more upside, he was beat soundly by Herbert so I doubt he would have fared better. 

 

Snyder - See Green. Amazing performance, but it was as if beating our Olympic Champ earned him no respect! We just started bashing Varner for losing to him!

 

Rey - performed as expected. Yes he is not very exciting to watch but you have to use the tools you have to be successful. He wasn't gifted with Burroughs like speed, but he has incredible strength which he uses to maintain good position and tries to win close matches. Can't blame him for that 

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People have it in their mind that Americans should be the best in the world.  When guys like Metcalf, Ramos, and Herbert lose on the international stage, people assume it is because they haven't "opened up enough" or aren't "getting to their offense."  This assumption comes because they have been so dominant in domestic competition.  Most don't want to admit that our system fails to prepare these athletes for success against international competition, and they are simply being outclassed.  It is especially bad when they lose to people other than Russians or Iranians, or a guy who is one year removed from being a Junior...They don't realize that they may young, but they have many more years wrestling Freestyle than our best guys and are simply more slick and have better technique.  

 

Yes I agree. We want to complain that we are not #1, but we don't want to change the system that holds us back. 

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We have high standards. You can't achieve if you don't demand it of yourself. Wrestlers are this way.

It doesn't matter what you demand of yourself when you are spending the first 15 years of your wrestling career training in the wrong style.  OP is pointing out that it is fine to ask these guys to win beforehand, but when they fail (and failure was expected given the track record), we should support their effort after the fact.  Jake Herbert doesn't have to still be competing at age 30.  He doesn't care what any of us think, since he's doing it to chase his dream, but I'm glad and appreciative that he is still putting it out on the line.  He just so happened to run into a better wrestler, but we ask "what is wrong with Jake Herbert." Nothing is wrong with Herbert..He is a great athlete..The question is, "what is wrong with us and our system."  Maybe Jake Herbert will be an olympic champion next year.  I hope so and would be thrilled.  If he isn't though, and he leaves his shoes on the mat (figuratively), we should all applaud a great career.  

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No matter the endeavor there are many who know everything and won't hesitate to tell you how to do it.

 

Moving a 100 year old Church? Getting your Elk each hunting season? What is the best car".

 

They 'know' how to do it all even though they may not have done a damn thing past programming the TV remote.

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I don't think it's bashing our athletes as individuals, so much as it is trying to figure out the recipe for international freestyle success.

 

Not every style works well at the world level the way the rules are now.

 

I think the first and last requirement is a really high powered offense:

 

Now, it's guy's like Nick Gwiazdowski; Logan Steiber; James Green; and even, Ian Miller.

 

Not so long ago, it was Stephen Abas and Lincoln McIlreavy.

 

You know, the guys who always could light up the scoreboard like a pinball machine.  That's the "it" factor.

 

From what I've seen, the tough guy, grind it out, tactical approach just doesn't work at the top level.  The guys they're up against from Russia and Iran and the -Stans can just put up too many points for them to keep up with.  

 

Time and time again, we've seen that you just can't head into the last 45-60 seconds of world competition thinking you're going to be able to hold on to a 1 point lead.

 

So, nothing personal, but a guy like T-Ram, I have my doubts about at this level.  He's not now, and never has been, slick enough and offensive enough; he's too much of a grinder, etc.

 

My point is, I think we all know deep down inside which guys have what it takes to compete at that level.  It's the guy who can put up lots of points.  We have them.  We've got to do a better job of recognizing them and selecting them. 

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The actual answer is college rooting interests color people's thoughts

 

I was rooting heart and soul for every American.  The fact I rooted for Logan Stieber against Tony Ramos in college would never cause me not to want Ramos to win.  Indeed, I was very upset when he lost against the Iranian.  Like everyone else, I'm aware of what he did wrong but also feel he's close to being very good.  I would hope all American wrestling fans would want all Americans to do well.  Anyone who feels differently is not much of a fan. 

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"The online disinhibition effect is a loosening (or complete abandonment) of social restrictions and inhibitions that would otherwise be present in normal face-to-face interaction during interactions with others on the Internet. This effect is caused by many factors, including dissociative anonymity, invisibility, asynchronicity, solipsistic introjection, dissociative imagination, and minimization of authority."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect

Edited by crablegs

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I was rooting heart and soul for every American. The fact I rooted for Logan Stieber against Tony Ramos in college would never cause me not to want Ramos to win. Indeed, I was very upset when he lost against the Iranian. Like everyone else, I'm aware of what he did wrong but also feel he's close to being very good. I would hope all American wrestling fans would want all Americans to do well. Anyone who feels differently is not much of a fan.

You're not one of the people bashing. Go ahead and look at the post of "leshismore" re: Ramos and you'll see what I'm talking about; that is, specifically the bashers.

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I was rooting heart and soul for every American.  The fact I rooted for Logan Stieber against Tony Ramos in college would never cause me not to want Ramos to win.  Indeed, I was very upset when he lost against the Iranian.  Like everyone else, I'm aware of what he did wrong but also feel he's close to being very good.  I would hope all American wrestling fans would want all Americans to do well.  Anyone who feels differently is not much of a fan. 

 

 

 

 

Metcalf - This is the one that bugs me the most. I am not an Iowa fan (at all!) but he has been our rep for the last several years and people keep bashing him. Sure he hasn't gotten a medal, but its not because he is not good! He has shown he can beat the best in the world (lost a very winnable one-point match to the #1 ranked wrestler). Wrestle that bracket another day and we could have all new medalists and Metcalf could certainly be one of them. I hope he finally gets his due in Rio. 

 

Seinfeld had a good skit about how people view teams.

 

 

..

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It's the same cycle every year.

 

Just before worlds, people become unrealistically optimistic about how the good the team actually is. They think, "If Burroughs can win gold, can't everyone? Being best in the US means you're also best in the world. Right?"

 

Then when our guys go and admirably perform as expected or even above expectations, people are disgusted that they didn't all pin their way through the tournament. Never fails.

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The actual answer is college rooting interests color people's thoughts.

Sadly, I think this is true. I don't have any issue rooting for Ramos and metcalf, but some take their Iowa hate way too far. Many take their PSU hate way too far, but for some reason that wasn't an issue at this years worlds ;)

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So, nothing personal, but a guy like T-Ram, I have my doubts about at this level.  He's not now, and never has been, slick enough and offensive enough; he's too much of a grinder, etc.

 

yes because he was and is coached to be that way, and it works great in folkstyle but not so much in freestyle. When ramos was talking about rahimi he said he "wrestles that lazy european style with his arms relaxed." Ive been at clinics with high level  eastern european coaches and iowa/american coaches.  they could not emphasize how to handfight in a more opposite way. The classic iowa/big ten mentality seems to be heavy handfighting and aggressiveness vs relaxed slick techniques. Something I found very interesting was that a lot of american coaches teach to pull on the head constantly, whereas A few eastern europeaners have said to never pull on the head and instead get wrist control or keep your hands on biceps. The only time they said touch the head was for a club to be used as a set up. If the opponent who has better technique is in good enough shape to hang on during the handfight, he is going to win most likely, and at worlds everyone is in "shape." maybe eventually the iowa style will work but it seems to be a bit like the story of sysyphus

Edited by newyorkwrestler

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I love reading these boards and appreciate all the great info, but it can really get depressing reading all the bashing of our own athletes! I know, I know, its a public forum, we all have the right to give our opinion. Well here is my opinion... when you have wrestlers and coaches representing your country in the world championships, you should get behind them and support them no matter what!

thats a really inane, thoughtless opinion.

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You're not one of the people bashing. Go ahead and look at the post of "leshismore" re: Ramos and you'll see what I'm talking about; that is, specifically the bashers.

 

Agree with Vak.

 

A disproportionate amount of criticism of American wrestlers is directed at Ramos and Metcalf because of the lingering collegiate biases that some have... and 90% plus comes from the usual suspects... e.g. lemon pie, cletus etc... those that have an almost pathological dislike of Brands and anything that comes out of Iowa. I think the majority of posters support all the US wrestlers.

 

I'm disappointed that Metcalf didn't medal. But at the same time, he won the US trials in a dominant fashion. He had a rough draw at worlds. He won his first two matches and then lost a squeaker to the #1 ranked Iranian, in the round of 16. That match could've gone either way. But he lost by a point.Then the Iranian, while leading, got caught and pinned in the following round by Chamizo (who went on to win gold) and thereby eliminating Metcalf's chance at repechage rounds.

 

So Metcalf loses a 5-4 squeaker to the #1 ranked guy in the world, and has no chance at repechage.

 

And Ramos goes 2-2, losing to #4 ranked Iran by 3-1 in his 3rd match.

 

And now Metcalf and Ramos take criticism from the usual clowns, who say nothing about wrestlers who went 0-1. 

 

I'm happy to see Burroughs win gold, as well as the surprise gold medal finish for Snyder. I also say congrats to all the wrestlers who represented USA. These were the best guys the USA had, they put it out there and deserve our respect and thanks.

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I hate Iowa. Haha.  I was pissed when Ramos  beat Conaway, and Gulibon.

 

I was not happy when Snyder beat McIntosh. 

 

Metcalf beating JO like the last 50 head to head matches.

 

Burroughs beating Taylor.

 

Herbert beating Ruth.

 

BUT I was hoping Ramos could get a medal, and Herbert could somehow medal also. I felt bad for both of them.

 

Burroughs is the MAN, how can anyone not root for him?

 

When Snyder won his championship I was going nuts! I watched his finals match over 10 times. He is a great person all around.

 

Metcalf has been our best for a bit now, I was so hoping he would get over the hump this year.

 

We might all get a bit disappointed in some of them for their results, but just imagine how they feel? 

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