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Billyhoyle

Dake To 86?

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One question, do the '15 WT alternates automatically qualify for the '16 OTTs at the weight they choose, or is it just limited to those on the first team?

 

I'm mostly wondering if Kyle Dake is already qualified for OTTs at 86kg, or if his opportunities to continue to "test the waters" up a weight class are narrowing and he needs to pull the trigger one way or another. Besides the December USOTT qualifier, what other opportunities does he have in the near term? The Bill Farrell in November, the Dave Schultz in January... what else?

 

I wonder if Pan Ams would be too late for him to adequately bulk up in time for the Olympics, if he qualifies.

Only first-teamers are automatically qualified, so, no, he has not qualified.

 

 After the Farrell, if he struggles at 86 at the OT qualifier, he's limited to only the Schultz (highest placing medalist) or last-chance qualifier (champion) to get into the olympic trials.  It seems to me that if he's going to really go for it size-wise, he has to commit for a period of time...but then the system isn't really set up for many longer term options if he fails in the next couple months.  

 

For anybody, once they've qualified, they can show up at the trials and wrestle whatever weight they want.  

 

If he's really serious about giving 86 a go, maybe he should just qualify himself for OTTs by trying to place high at the Farrell at 74...then go all in for 86 from then on.  Otherwise, he's got a short window in which to gain the weight to be sure he even qualifies for the trials.

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Dake has no business at 86 but it is indicative of how skewed our current system is. Someone mentioned "data" regarding the challenge matches, but how many challengers have won?

 

Someone also asked if US wrestling got in the ear of the officials. They don't have to. The bias in the system is so clear that what else remains to be said.

 

I think we are having a cultural misunderstanding. I am a fan of most sports and college wrestling in particular. I am not a freestyle fan and why would I be? The sport had to be rescued from a well earned extinction. it was unwatchable and with its arcane rules turned an athletic competition into the equivalent of consulting the Delphic oracle. The system has improved, but the rot is still there perpetuated by the same people that came thisclose to killing what is a niche sport. Why should I give a damn? I see a still moribund sport with a very small fan base trying to justify absurd unfairness and pretending that I don't get it. What don't I get? The powers that be took something that should have made the more general wrestling fans excited and killed it. Now I am not simply indifferent, I am hostile. If you cannot run an already struggling sport better than this then you don't deserve to have one. All I care about as a fan is a rational, fair system. Instead we have garbage. And general fans care even less.

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the system is rational. returning world medal winners get a big advantage. sounds rational to me. maybe its not fair but that depends on the point of view. i think its fair but can understand why others might not. 

 

straggler, if you're done with your weekly hissy fit, what do you think international wrestling should change, besides the US WTT & OTT process, to reverse it's moribund status?

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You sound like a whiny two year old. The sport stinks in numerous ways, but the trials process is not one of them.

 

I agree. The fundamental problem is that -- no matter the selection process-- there is only one spot at each weight (and just six weights).

 

Also, unless you are a world or Olympic champ, the world doesn't really care.  I college, you can place 5th and be an AA. But post-college there seems to be nowhere else worth going but the top of the podium.  As Ricky Bobby said, If you're not first, you're last. Sad but true.

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Dake has no business at 86 but it is indicative of how skewed our current system is. Someone mentioned "data" regarding the challenge matches, but how many challengers have won?

 

Someone also asked if US wrestling got in the ear of the officials. They don't have to. The bias in the system is so clear that what else remains to be said.

 

I think we are having a cultural misunderstanding. I am a fan of most sports and college wrestling in particular. I am not a freestyle fan and why would I be? The sport had to be rescued from a well earned extinction. it was unwatchable and with its arcane rules turned an athletic competition into the equivalent of consulting the Delphic oracle. The system has improved, but the rot is still there perpetuated by the same people that came thisclose to killing what is a niche sport. Why should I give a damn? I see a still moribund sport with a very small fan base trying to justify absurd unfairness and pretending that I don't get it. What don't I get? The powers that be took something that should have made the more general wrestling fans excited and killed it. Now I am not simply indifferent, I am hostile. If you cannot run an already struggling sport better than this then you don't deserve to have one. All I care about as a fan is a rational, fair system. Instead we have garbage. And general fans care even less.

Because you don't like international wrestling, it may be difficult for you to understand just how good Jordan Burroughs is.  In the history of wrestling in the United States, he is currently without question the third best wrestler we have ever produced.  It is very possible that he ends up #1, since his plan is to go through 2020.  Dake has no significant tournament wins at 74kg.   He is a good wrestler, but has shown nothing to indicate he is on the level of JB.  People who claim that we have 3 of the top 4 wrestlers at 74kg in the world have no idea what they are talking about.  Dake has a win over Tsargush, but did not make the finals in that tournament. Winning 4 NCAA titles at 4 different weights means nothing to the Iranians, Russians, Azeris, Belarusians, etc...How well did Pat Smith do internationally with his 4 NCAA titles?  How well is Stieber doing with his 4?

 

The system is there to protect Burroughs because he is our best 74kg wrestler..It's very simple.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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No system is perfect. When the system didn't protect the top guys, people complained about that. I think the US is probably too litigious a society for "coaches choice" to work, so the current system is a compromise.

 

Well said Billyhoyle. Burroughs is a generational talent. Very few wrestlers in history have had 4 undefeated international seasons.

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Only first-teamers are automatically qualified, so, no, he has not qualified.

 

 After the Farrell, if he struggles at 86 at the OT qualifier, he's limited to only the Schultz (highest placing medalist) or last-chance qualifier (champion) to get into the olympic trials.  It seems to me that if he's going to really go for it size-wise, he has to commit for a period of time...but then the system isn't really set up for many longer term options if he fails in the next couple months.  

 

For anybody, once they've qualified, they can show up at the trials and wrestle whatever weight they want.  

 

If he's really serious about giving 86 a go, maybe he should just qualify himself for OTTs by trying to place high at the Farrell at 74...then go all in for 86 from then on.  Otherwise, he's got a short window in which to gain the weight to be sure he even qualifies for the trials.

 

Thank you for the clarification! The tactic of qualifying early at 74kg and then giving 86kg a go is an interesting one since the Bill Farrell and Dave Schultz tournaments award the highest placed US wrestler per weight not already qualified - but in either case, it sounds like Kyle Dake will have to make a decision pretty soon if he wants to:

 

1. Qualify for OTTs

2. Continue testing the waters at 86kg

3. Physically get to the right size, strength, etc. to compete at the next weight up (if that's what he decides)

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Then do it like the Russians and have the coaches ultimately decide. No need to introduce handicaps to a sport that prides itself on fairness (two people, equal weight, shall face each other under the same conditions, etc. etc.).

Obviously simply having the coaches pick would be a poor system. The system is fair because it is the same for everybody.  It's not an arbitrary coach's decision, but a preset qualification system that applies to every weight.  Dake has a fair chance to win.   If he is able to go through the challenge tournament and then beat Burroughs, he will probably have success at the international level.  Think of it this way..If Dake were magically given the bye, Burroughs would be the heavy favorite to go through the challenge tournament and then win the spot.  Burroughs has 2 losses in his entire international career...and one of the losses was on 1 leg to a 2X world champion.      

 

In chess, the defending world champion is at a big advantage because he can sit out while the challengers go through the qualification process....He earned that right by being the world champion.  Burroughs earns his byes when he brings back medals for the united states, which is unfortunately too rare of an occurrence.   

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All the talk about the trials being unfair is coming from only one camp with regard to only one weight. Zach Rey supporters were not bitching about Tervel getting a bye. It's a fair system. If you win you are in, that simple. There is no coach's selection meeting or anything of that nature. And let's be honest, a healthy Jordan Burroughs is still going to beat Kyle Dake even it was Dake that is fresh and Burroughs goes through a gauntlet. It is not a knock on Kyle Dake, Jordan Burroughs is just that good.

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I agree. The fundamental problem is that -- no matter the selection process-- there is only one spot at each weight (and just six weights).

 

Also, unless you are a world or Olympic champ, the world doesn't really care.  I college, you can place 5th and be an AA. But post-college there seems to be nowhere else worth going but the top of the podium.  As Ricky Bobby said, If you're not first, you're last. Sad but true.

 

 

I disagree.   There was plenty of praise going  out to Green and Smith after finishing 3rd and 5th, respectively.   

 

And with the exception of some complete buffoons, there was plenty of celebration over Pico's improvement, despite claiming bronze this time around.  

 

Of course gold is the goal, but even guys like Metcalf get recognition and respect, despite never sniffing a world level medal.   I don't buy that only gold matters in our culture.   

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I have to agree.  

 

This whole unfair thing is sour grapes.   

 

The system is in place in order to reward those who go out there and perform on the world stage, when it matters, not during exhibition matches and when the rest of the world is going half speed.  

 

If you go out there and win a world medal, I don't care if you're Pee We Herman, you deserve a bye into the final.   What can one do about it?  Beat the guy.   Every guy who is sitting in the final with a bye, at one point did not have that luxury.  They earned it.   

 

I hope it never comes down to coaches selection, that would be against all USA wrestling is supposed to be about.   It's already unfair enough with tremendous weight cuts and other means of gaming the system, such as weighing in for the greco tournament and then ballooning up for the freestyle event.   Lets not further take away from the integrity of competition by asking for the spot be awarded by subjective practices.  

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In chess, the defending world champion is at a big advantage because he can sit out while the challengers go through the qualification process....He earned that right by being the world champion.  Burroughs earns his byes when he brings back medals for the united states, which is unfortunately too rare of an occurrence.   

 

Chess?? You seriously don't see the difference between what the chess champ gets to do and what the wrestling champ gets to do?

 

FFS....

 

Have the final event against the reigning champ the next day and I'll shut up forever on this topic. Until then, anybody who claims it is a fair system either has a personal agenda or is an idiot with regard to human physiology.

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Chess?? You seriously don't see the difference between what the chess champ gets to do and what the wrestling champ gets to do?

 

FFS....

 

Have the final event against the reigning champ the next day and I'll shut up forever on this topic. Until then, anybody who claims it is a fair system either has a personal agenda or is an idiot with regard to human physiology.

I wanted to pick an analogy that you'd like and picked that one because of your username.  It's fair because it applies to all the weights equally..Burroughs has an advantage, you're right, but it's because he earned it.  Anyway, we will just have to agree to disagree.  

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Someone mentioned "data" regarding the challenge matches, but how many challengers have won?

I posted data before: The average time spent on the mat during the challenge tournament for the ones advancing to the 2 of 3 final is 12m30s.  Looking at all of the 21 instances from the last Olympic trials and the most recent world team trials, the challenger performed BETTER in the second finals match more often than he/she performed worse (meaning fatigue didn't seem to be affecting the finals outcome in terms of performance declining as the series went along).  The challenger won 4 of the series, which is the outcome we would expect if the "champion" wins a 72/28 split of single matches.

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Hypothetically, suppose an American wins @ both 70 & 74 prior to an Olympic year. If the 70 kg chooses to go 74, is he just another member of the herd?

You actually get the bye as long as you medal.  Don't need to win.  It only counts for the following year at the weight in which you won the medal, though.  That's why James Green won't get a bye for the OTT.  

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I posted data before: The average time spent on the mat during the challenge tournament for the ones advancing to the 2 of 3 final is 12m30s.  Looking at all of the 21 instances from the last Olympic trials and the most recent world team trials, the challenger performed BETTER in the second finals match more often than he/she performed worse (meaning fatigue didn't seem to be affecting the finals outcome in terms of performance declining as the series went along).  The challenger won 4 of the series, which is the outcome we would expect if the "champion" wins a 72/28 split of single matches.

 

 

Now there you go interjecting facts into a pissing match made up mostly from emotional bias  and significant hyperbole.   

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JB competed at the 2013 and 2014 US Open. Both times, he competed even though he was the returning world/Olympic champ and did not have to. In contrast, Dake sat out both times. If Dake wanted to prove he was better than JB in a standard bracket format, he had two chances to do so. But he didn't take them.

 

Meanwhile, JB has four undefeated world/Olympic seasons under his belt, while Dake has only competed a handful of times since graduating in 2013. 

 

All that being so, I don't understand why some fans suggest something unfair has happened to allow JB to make the world team over Dake. Between JB and Dake, I think our world-team-selection system has worked.

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