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Billyhoyle

Dake To 86?

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2 years ago at the trials JB teched Dake the first match and the second match they went to OT. All we heard about on here and evey other forum was how Dake "figured" JB out and was so close to beating him. This year JB won 6-3 the first match and teched him the second match.

 

Is it really that close? I think we all know who is head and shoulders better.

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Dake is closer to medaling at 74 kg than at 86 kg, Burroughs or not.   

 

He actually is competitive with Burroughs and pushes him in some matches.   At 86 Kg, he wont be competitive at all.   He's just too small.   His best bet by far is focusing at 74 kg and training specifically to take out Burroughs,   The guy who can't even make the team a weight class down beat Burroughs.   It's not like it hasn't been done.   

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Dake is closer to medaling at 74 kg than at 86 kg, Burroughs or not.   

 

He actually is competitive with Burroughs and pushes him in some matches.   At 86 Kg, he wont be competitive at all.   He's just too small.   His best bet by far is focusing at 74 kg and training specifically to take out Burroughs,   The guy who can't even make the team a weight class down beat Burroughs.   It's not like it hasn't been done.   

i agree. but the fact that he's considering going up hurts his chances. single minded focus on doing something no one thinks can be done is the only chance he has, and that lies at 74.

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Techs mean you are better that is about it now. When I saw Cael Tech Brandon Eggum at the 2001 trails finals with 8 takedowns and 2 one point leg laces-that is a tech fall. Cael would have won today 20-0. And he went on to win a frreakin Silver medal at worlds. Dake can medal at 74k. He needs to stick it out and maybe he can somehow get the spot like if JB gets hurt. Burroughs did not truly invoke superior dominance on Dake, sorry he just did not. But poor Dake I really feel sorry for him. He like someone said before is just to small. I think Taylor will be better suited at 86k.

Edited by PRyan2012

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Because you don't like international wrestling, it may be difficult for you to understand just how good Jordan Burroughs is.  In the history of wrestling in the United States, he is currently without question the third best wrestler we have ever produced.  It is very possible that he ends up #1, since his plan is to go through 2020.  Dake has no significant tournament wins at 74kg.   He is a good wrestler, but has shown nothing to indicate he is on the level of JB.  People who claim that we have 3 of the top 4 wrestlers at 74kg in the world have no idea what they are talking about.  Dake has a win over Tsargush, but did not make the finals in that tournament. Winning 4 NCAA titles at 4 different weights means nothing to the Iranians, Russians, Azeris, Belarusians, etc...How well did Pat Smith do internationally with his 4 NCAA titles?  How well is Stieber doing with his 4?

 

The system is there to protect Burroughs because he is our best 74kg wrestler..It's very simple.  

If he is our best then there is absolutely no reason he should be protected. That makes very little sense and it destroys the integrity of the system. Was John Smith protected like this? I hope not.   

 

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but very few people care about freestyle in the US. Bad rules. Bad system. Irrelevancy. That is the way it goes. Sports kill themselves all the time. Look what happened to Olympic boxing, once an Olympic highlight. Your sport almost offed itself. And I am simply pointing out how badly it is still mismanaged.

 

Let's see. We can protect wrestlers unlike we did in the past and unlike any of our competitors do for the sake of a medal. Or we can recognize the damage this does in the eyes of wider fans. Who cares who wins? You give fans an honest competition. You don't make them feel that the system is a cheat. Your virtually dead sport managed to screw up the transition of two of the most celebrated wrestlers ever to come out of college to the point where they are engaging in a farce. Congratulations. Now you and the 50 people that still care can tell yourselves that any criticism is from a crackpot.    

Edited by straggler

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If he is our best then there is absolutely no reason he should be protected. That makes very little sense and it destroys the integrity of the system. Was John Smith protected like this? I hope not.   

 

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but very few people care about freestyle in the US. Bad rules. Bad system. Irrelevancy. That is the way it goes. Sports kill themselves all the time. Look what happened to Olympic boxing, once an Olympic highlight. Your sport almost offed itself. And I am simply pointing out how badly it is still mismanaged.

 

Let's see. We can protect wrestlers unlike we did in the past and unlike any of our competitors do for the sake of a medal. Or we can recognize the damage this does in the eyes of wider fans. Who cares who wins? You give fans an honest competition. You don't make them feel that the system is a cheat. Your virtually dead sport managed to screw up the transition of two of the most celebrated wrestlers ever to come out of college to the point where they are engaging in a farce. Congratulations. Now you and the 50 people that still care can tell yourselves that any criticism is from a crackpot.    

 

Are you talking about Snyder and Burroughs?  Their transition has worked out fine.  If you mean Dake and Taylor, it sounds like you are blaming the sport of freestyle for their inability to compete in it?  Burroughs won all 3 US opens that he competed in..that's an even bracket.  Either of them can enter the open international tournaments that he goes to and try to knock him off there (Marable did).   It's not just Burroughs that they have trouble with you know....What great international results can you point to from them?  If anything, you can blame folkstyle for their diffuclty with competing at the international level.  They wasted a lot of time on techniques they no longer can use now that the matches really count, and aren't nearly as comfortable in freestyle scrambles as they were with folkstyle rules.  

 

If Burroughs had to go through the challenge bracket to meet Dake/Taylor, he would probably win both without a problem.  

 

You say nobody cares about international wrestling..i guess because you don't like the style of freestyle?  Well, that's the style the rest of the world competes in, and it actually has a lot more action than folkstyle.  If you want to run a folkstyle world championships, be my guess.  You can have Ben Askren defend his 

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If he is our best then there is absolutely no reason he should be protected. That makes very little sense and it destroys the integrity of the system. Was John Smith protected like this? I hope not.   

 

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but very few people care about freestyle in the US. Bad rules. Bad system. Irrelevancy. That is the way it goes. Sports kill themselves all the time. Look what happened to Olympic boxing, once an Olympic highlight. Your sport almost offed itself. And I am simply pointing out how badly it is still mismanaged.

 

Let's see. We can protect wrestlers unlike we did in the past and unlike any of our competitors do for the sake of a medal. Or we can recognize the damage this does in the eyes of wider fans. Who cares who wins? You give fans an honest competition. You don't make them feel that the system is a cheat. Your virtually dead sport managed to screw up the transition of two of the most celebrated wrestlers ever to come out of college to the point where they are engaging in a farce. Congratulations. Now you and the 50 people that still care can tell yourselves that any criticism is from a crackpot.    

 

Why should NCAA studs automatically have international success? Tebow was the man in college, but hasn't been able to make an NFL roster. That's just how things go when you move from one level to another. 

 

NCAA wrestling is fun and interesting, but it's a notch or two below international wrestling. At worlds, every guy is a national champion, grown man, and full-time wrestler. At the NCAAs, a bunch of college-age part-time wrestlers are fighting to be a national champ. Big difference. 

 

At the end of the day, JB's four undefeated world championship seasons is more impressive than any NCAA credential. 

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Btw it's not just the US that "protects" champions. The Russians have an open bracket, but they also preselect guys, or remove national champs from the roster, when the coaches feel like it. This year 2 of the Russian FS champs didn't go to worlds. In Greco, Vlasov was named to the team a week before worlds and won gold.

 

Iran can't decide on a system. The Azeris, as far as I know, straight up pick the team. Canada has an open bracket in worlds years but a "ladder" system for the Olympic trials.

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armspin, I don't think too many people are complaining about protecting the champs anymore. That's the decision the US governing body made and it is what it is. What I and others keep correcting is the notion that the system is somehow fair when it is absolutely not so. That doesn't mean we don't think champs should get special treatment, but let's call it what it is, special treatment, and not delude ourselves by suggesting that imposing a handicap is "fair." it's not. The Russians don't always choose their team fairly either, and it's worked out pretty well for them. There's no shame in admitting team selection is inherently unfair when anything other than a pure wrestle-off without any bells or whistles is involved.

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We've needed this system for a long time.   Anyone remember Kerry McCoy defeating the reigning world champion from Bakersfield and then promptly failing to medal at the Olympic games?  

 

McCoy was able to game plan and be victorious, but it didn't mean he was the better wrestler.   Results on the intentional stage proved that.   The system we now have in place is as close to prefect as can be.   The reigning champ not only get a bye into the final, but if defeated, he must also be out placed at an international tournament.    Had we had that in place back when McCoy took the Olympic spot, we'd probably have another Olympic medal for team USA.   Instead, we don't .   

 

Burroughs and Snyder will have bye's into the final and it should be that way.  They earned that.   It's not like they got favoritism and just placed there.   They went out and won world titles in order to enjoy that advantage.   

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 The reigning champ not only get a bye into the final, but if defeated, he must also be out placed at an international tournament.    

 

They got rid of this part. I think it was a compromise for those who thought the system was too unfair. This was in place for '12 though.  

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They got rid of this part. I think it was a compromise for those who thought the system was too unfair. This was in place for '12 though.  

 

 

I didn't realize that.   I know we used it for the 3 way battle between Scott, Humphries and the black wrestler,cannot remember his name.   

I thought it worked well and I'm disappointed to learn it's no longer in place. 

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I didn't realize that. I know we used it for the 3 way battle between Scott, Humphries and the black wrestler,cannot remember his name.

I thought it worked well and I'm disappointed to learn it's no longer in place.

I was pretty sure it was still in place. Hmm...

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Bottom line should Dake go to 190lbs? I say no way after a mid level guy just muscled him. Taylors length should make him better at this weight-we will see soon. Kyle if you read these boards go back to 163-it is a perfect weight for you and who the hell knows JB may get hurt or you could pull an upset. In no way are you pulling an upset against Saduleav or any other top 190 guy-no shame in that at all. Sadualeev can probably beat all our best Lt Heavies in Varner, Sanderson and Snyder. Burroughs is a smallish 163 and I think you can beat him in the prefect scenario possibly but 190lbs in a no go brother.  

Edited by PRyan2012

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Plas,

 

I think you are wrong in my opinion. He wants to be a champion? 86k there simply is no possible way Dake is a world champion there-Sadualeav is the best P4P in the world hands down (Sajidov/Saitev/Gatsalov hybrid)  and the 2nd tier guys would eat Dake up. The third tier like Herbert is where Dake is at right now. Taylor has leverage, long arms, and and 3" in height to pack weight on. I think Dake should commit now to 163. 190lbs is just to much for him. I mean he was already a bumped up 163 kind of. And by the way it comes down to Dake and Taylor at Trials I bet. I simply think Herbert is done but I thought that this year and he proved me wrong. Exciting stuff!

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Plas,

 

I think you are wrong in my opinion. He wants to be a champion? 86k there simply is no possible way Dake is a world champion there-Sadualeav is the best P4P in the world hands down (Sajidov/Saitev/Gatsalov hybrid)  and the 2nd tier guys would eat Dake up. The third tier like Herbert is where Dake is at right now. Taylor has leverage, long arms, and and 3" in height to pack weight on. I think Dake should commit now to 163. 190lbs is just to much for him. I mean he was already a bumped up 163 kind of. And by the way it comes down to Dake and Taylor at Trials I bet. I simply think Herbert is done but I thought that this year and he proved me wrong. Exciting stuff!

 

When you're in HS and even college, it's fine believe that the only goal that really matters is being the champion.  Because of the wrestling mindset, he is going to say that is his goal, and he will "believe" that he can beat Sadulaev.  However, the main reason 86kg is a good move is because it gives him the best chance to make the team.  Dake has a number of sponsors, and getting to Rio is important for them..Otherwise they are sponsoring a guy who will only be visible at the trials, and they can do no marketing run up to the olympics. Winning any Oympic medal would be a huge accomplishment to further Dake's career (or anyone else not named Burroughs).  Sometimes, it's not really just about winning gold, despite what people like to say.  

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