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Shout Out to Navy Scheduling

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http://www.navysports.com/sports/m-wrestl/recaps/110115aab.html

 

Great way to kick off the season. I am a big fan of what Navy did with this event.

 

I have always thought that splitting teams to allow for common opponents is a good way to start the season and allow guys to help give the staff a gage of where they will stand against guys outside the room.

 

I like the idea of D1 teams kicking off the season with D3 programs. It kind of reminds me of FBS teams hosting FCS teams in football. Every D1 team should have a handful of dual wins each season. Let's show off the talent level in D1 rooms by showing how they compare to other division programs (which also allows athletes from the lower profile divisions to showcase their own talent).

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The only question this brings up to me is dual records. I have traditionally only registered the "A" team in official results. So at things like the Desert Duals, if Wartburg had an A and a B team, only the A team's duals were on the team's dual meet record.

 

In this case, I only counted Navy's two wins vs. two-by-two ... So in the dual meet records, I would have Navy 2-0 instead of 4-0. 

 

It's a minor point, but I'm kind of harping on how important keeping accurate records from a team standpoint are for fan engagement. 

 

I believe I'm doing this the proper way. 

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The only question this brings up to me is dual records. I have traditionally only registered the "A" team in official results. So at things like the Desert Duals, if Wartburg had an A and a B team, only the A team's duals were on the team's dual meet record.

 

In this case, I only counted Navy's two wins vs. two-by-two ... So in the dual meet records, I would have Navy 2-0 instead of 4-0. 

 

It's a minor point, but I'm kind of harping on how important keeping accurate records from a team standpoint are for fan engagement. 

 

I believe I'm doing this the proper way.

I believe, according to the NCAA, it would actually be four wins. I think they recognize any contest against a four-year institution that holds regional accreditation and has declared the sport 'varsity' to count as an official contest when they compete against the institution's team that has also been declared 'varsity'.

 

These athletes are all declared varsity and four official contests between two countable institution was held.

 

Wartburg may have been labeling their 'B' team JV; or maybe it should have been countable? It typically comes up in other team sports where there are contest limits but since wrestling only has date limits, I am not 100 percent sure on how it would apply.

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We have to differentiate between what the NCAA calls official (and why) and what the school can consider.

The NCAA has rules as to what counts for the purposes of seeding for that given year.

All relevant bouts count for RPI/WL etc for seeding among the qualifiers.

The school can keep records largely as they wish. If a kid redshirts, it doesn't necessarily have to count on his career bio.

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We have to differentiate between what the NCAA calls official (and why) and what the school can consider.

The NCAA has rules as to what counts for the purposes of seeding for that given year.

All relevant bouts count for RPI/WL etc for seeding among the qualifiers.

The school can keep records largely as they wish. If a kid redshirts, it doesn't necessarily have to count on his career bio.

Since there is no team post season, it would sound as if there is no standard for determining team records, despite the rulebook having determined rules for determining winners between two teams when wrestled as a dual.

 

That does seem a little odd to me... But admittedly, I find the duality of wrestling convoluted.

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I thought you were talking about individual records at first as in another thread. I see you were talking about team records now.

I would suggest much the same applies though. What made me think you guys were talking about individual records was the claiming of the rule as to what counts. That's for individuals.

I don't believe there is any guidance about what counts and what doesn't other than how many weighin days you can have. Competition counts against the limits but when multiple teams are wrestling the same day I would suggest that Jason B was correct in doing what he did.

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I thought you were talking about individual records at first as in another thread. I see you were talking about team records now.

I would suggest much the same applies though. What made me think you guys were talking about individual records was the claiming of the rule as to what counts. That's for individuals.

I don't believe there is any guidance about what counts and what doesn't other than how many weighin days you can have. Competition counts against the limits but when multiple teams are wrestling the same day I would suggest that Jason B was correct in doing what he did.

Thanks. Jason's method might be the 'best practice' for wrestling.

 

I was thinking about the interpretation that the NCAA handed down at the end of this summer about countable opponents but that was mainly in response to the 'College of Faith' schools that D1 schools had been scheduling.

 

It seems like it could be something rather simple for the wrestling community to take up to determine a good way to handle so there is some uniformity.

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Does college have a points system to limit the number of events a team can participate in?  How would that apply in this case?

No. There is a limit on the number of total dates. Which is part of the reason teams decide to wrestle multiple duals on one date. (The other big reason is to keep travel costs down.)

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if Jason is right to count it as 2 wins for Navy (and I'm not saying he is wrong, kind of an interesting deal), does that make York and DV each 0-1 for the year and not 0-2?

And, since Navy randomly divided the two teams, rather than having an 'A' and a 'B' team, which result do you count if any of the final results would have been different? Would Navy be 2-0 or 1-1? Would York have been 1-0 if they beat one of the Navy teams?

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That would be my question as well. Otherwise would losses by, say Wartburg's #2 team count in their respective coaches poll.

 

I'm somewhat confident (without looking fully) is Navy used mostly the same guys on each squad vs intermingling between the two. This is why I went 2-0.

 

B team concepts aren't new, but counting them seems something high schools have more to deal with than college sports.

 

I'm on a bit of a standings crusade this season, starting with Division I. I've tried to track every result for years, but some of the understaffed sports info offices below Division I won't track other teams results at quads at their place and sometimes those jamboree events have schedule shifts.

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Following these matches was the Blue-Gold meet to establish the year's beginning starting line-up, so all 4 matches were prior to starters being in place.

And that complicates thing further, but I was pointing to the team with Bernstein and Miller as the "A" squad.

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Also, keep in mind that Navy has two other things going for it: the largest roster size in Division I (and that's the case nearly every year), and the fact that they don't redshirt, meaning redshirt considerations don't need to be taken into account.

They don't redshirt but a number of the mids spend a year at NAPS.

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OK St and Okla U wrestle each other twice every year and both matches count on the their records - does that count any different just because they happen on different dates?

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Ok.  JB is right on this it is like counting 2 wins against the same team on the same night.  Essentially what they did was showcase their guys and in turn gave the smaller schools an opportunity to get mat time as well.  

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OK St and Okla U wrestle each other twice every year and both matches count on the their records - does that count any different just because they happen on different dates?

That's completely different. They aren't wrestling each other with two different squads on the same day ...

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And, to further JB's point, those two different squads aren't both wrestling at the same time.

 

Just for comparison's sake, let's say Ohio State's starting football team was playing Michigan at Ohio Stadium, and their backups were playing Western Michigan at the same time in the practice facility. Should both of those games count for Ohio State's record? I don't think very many people in their right minds think so.

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And, to further JB's point, those two different squads aren't both wrestling at the same time.

 

Just for comparison's sake, let's say Ohio State's starting football team was playing Michigan at Ohio Stadium, and their backups were playing Western Michigan at the same time in the practice facility. Should both of those games count for Ohio State's record? I don't think very many people in their right minds think so.

Yes, it would. The reason that doesn't happen is because there are other policies in place for football that regulate games. There are no such policies in place with wrestling.

 

A exhibition would be the only way for it to not count and both schools would have had to agree to compete as an exhibition before hand. The rules in wrestling, other than a dual meet tie breaker and the allotment of points isnreally only written to be concerned with individual results.

 

Based on everything I have seen over the years and the newly updated standard on reporting of NCAA statistics and the criteria for countable opponents, Navy should be 4-0 with a lot of guys 2-0 but without any athlete with a single match to be factored into the team's run at a national title or an individual athlete's qualification for the NCAAs.

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On a related note regarding Navy.  Is it me or have they moved away from the northeast when it comes to wrestlers?  Back in the day, their lineups were littered with Pa, NJ, Ny kids.  Not so much anymore.  That said, they do seem to find some diamonds in the rough from second tier states year after year.

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No such policies in place? Or are we unsure if there is a rule that determines split squad matches? Otherwise Wartburg would have a lot more losses from Desert Duals with its B team and the same with schools in D2 and D3 that has second dual teams wrestle at dual jamborees against JUCO teams and programs like that.

 

I want to know for a fact. I believe this needs to be addressed (I've sent emails and left messages with the rules folks already). Needs to be a complete clear definition of this. It's extremely minor, but in a sport where we do keep records for coaching wins, program wins and win streaks, it's about the authenticity of the dual result.

 

I just don't think you could potentially "game" the system but double dipping your squad with two duals against a lower division and get to count the team result as well.

Edited by JasonBryant

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Wrestling has date limits. It is the only sport I know of that uses date limits while keeping team records in head to head contests.

 

Navy could schedule two basketball games against the same team and they would count against their 28 game limit (leaving 26 games left to schedule).

 

Navy baseball could schedule a double header (or even two games at the same time) against a D3 team and it would count as two games against their maximum 56 game schedule.

 

In wrestling we have date limits. What you do on those dates is up to you. You can schedule as many duals as you'd like and against who you'd like.

 

Anytime a varsity four-year degree granting full NCAA member competes against another varsity four-year degree granting full NCAA member it is an official contest.

 

Two-year degree granting schools are not countable on the record. Nor are non-varsity opponents. I wonder if these were they teams the Wartburg split squads competed against? If so, they wouldn't count. They also count have declared them exhibitions before competing but then they shouldn't go on an athlete's season record for the individual match.

 

This is why Lock Haven't dual with Penn College in 2013 was listed as a January scrimmage on the schedule despite being a dual wrestled like any other right before their Pitt dual.

 

This is the rule that applies the policy to countable head to head competitions between teams:

 

31.3.3.1 Countable Competition. For NCAA team-championship selection purposes, competition is

countable only when the teams played are varsity intercollegiate teams of four-year, degree-granting institutions

that conduct a majority of their competition in that team sport against varsity intercollegiate teams (see Constitution

3.2.4.5) of United States four-year, degree-granting institutions. Competition against service teams,

professional teams, semiprofessional teams, amateur teams, two-year colleges and club teams shall be excluded.

The issue with wrestling is that there is no team qualification. And so, while I believe that Lock Haven used the correct interpretation of the dual, Iowa is free to schedule NJCAA schools at the Iowa City Duals and have them count on their record because there is no team selection.

 

The NCAA, in an effort to make uniform statistics, has released guidelines for countable opponents which highlight the provisions in this rule but other than the new interpretation that draws attention to the rule, I am not sure there is anything that actually will prevent Iowa from counting the duals since they will not be reviewed during the post season selection process and since they won't run afoul of competition limits.

 

This is for D1 programs and I rarely read the D3 rules so I don't feel as comfortable commenting on those.

 

For reference, this is the document I am talking about where the NCAA highlighted the countable opponents procedure and instructed SIDs to follow it. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/ForSIDs/CountOppDefinition.pdf

 

I often see a lot of issues with the duality of wrestling where we bounce back and forth between individual centric and team competitions. Though I rarely bring them up because it is often understood that wrestling is just the way it is and since it is run by wrestling people it all makes sense.

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Yes, it would. The reason that doesn't happen is because there are other policies in place for football that regulate games. There are no such policies in place with wrestling.

 

A exhibition would be the only way for it to not count and both schools would have had to agree to compete as an exhibition before hand. The rules in wrestling, other than a dual meet tie breaker and the allotment of points isnreally only written to be concerned with individual results.

 

Based on everything I have seen over the years and the newly updated standard on reporting of NCAA statistics and the criteria for countable opponents, Navy should be 4-0 with a lot of guys 2-0 but without any athlete with a single match to be factored into the team's run at a national title or an individual athlete's qualification for the NCAAs.

The big difference isn't Team A playing B in football and then Team A2 facing C.  It is A vs. B and A2 v B

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