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Snyder and His Big Check

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My understanding of the rules (simply from reading them) is that he is now no longer an amateur athlete and is done.  Ohio State thinks he will be able to take the money and compete.  We'll see who's right...Expect other coaches to file a complaint to the NCAA.   I don't think anybody has ever taken that much money for competing in their NCAA sport and retained eligibility (other than through the operation gold program, which the living the dream is not part of).  The rules allow for stipends to cover documented training costs/living expenses, but obviously 50K (on top of the USAW wrestling stipend he is already receiving) far exceeds living expenses.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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It's a ceremonial check, as we all know. It's not like he's going to mobile deposit that thing into his account. He's got good guidance on how to handle the monies associated with it. I believe that isn't going to be something he can "use" or "accept (meaning deposit)" for his own use right now. 

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It's a ceremonial check, as we all know. It's not like he's going to mobile deposit that thing into his account. He's got good guidance on how to handle the monies associated with it. I believe that isn't going to be something he can "use" or "accept (meaning deposit)" for his own use right now. 

You're right that the fake giant check alone won't make him lose eligibility, but a deferred payment is still a violation of NCAA rules/makes him no longer an amateur athlete.  If not, imagine all the "ceremonial checks" Alabama football and Kentucky basketball players would receive.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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You're right that the fake giant check alone won't make him lose eligibility, but a deferred payment is still a violation of NCAA rules/makes him no longer an amateur athlete.  If not, imagine all the "ceremonial checks" Alabama football and Kentucky basketball players would receive.  

Do you work in compliance or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn express last night?

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It's a ceremonial check, as we all know. It's not like he's going to mobile deposit that thing into his account. He's got good guidance on how to handle the monies associated with it. I believe that isn't going to be something he can "use" or "accept (meaning deposit)" for his own use right now. 

uh, Happy Gilmore did

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Edit: posted wrong document before. Fixed now

 

Do you work in compliance or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn express last night?

 
I just have a basic understanding of the rules from when I used to have to know them, and did a quick google search when the issue first came up.
 
 
Here is the form:
 
 
 
 
With the important section:
 
2. Amateurism – All Sports.
 
a. You are not eligible for participation in a sport if you have ever:
 
(1) Taken pay, or the promise of pay, for competing in that sport. [bylaw 12.1.2 and 12.1.2.1]
 
(2) Agreed (orally or in writing) to compete in professional athletics in that sport. • Exception: Prior to collegiate enrollment, in sports other than men's ice hockey and skiing, you agreed to compete on a professional team provided the agreement did not provide for more than actual and necessary expenses and you did not receive more than actual and necessary expenses. [bylaws 12.1.2 and 12.2.5.1] \
 
(3) Played on any professional athletics team as defined by the NCAA in that sport. • Exception: Prior to enrollment, in sports other than men's ice hockey and skiing, you competed on a professional team provided you did not receive more than actual and necessary expenses. [bylaws 12.1.2 and 12.2.3.2.1]
 
(4) Used your athletics skill for pay in any form in that sport. [bylaws 12.1.2 and 12.1.2.4]
 
• Exceptions: i. Prior to collegiate enrollment, in sports other than tennis, you accepted prize money based on place finish or performance in an athletics event from the sponsor of the event and the amount of prize money did not exceed $300 above your actual and necessary expenses to participate in the event; or [bylaws 12.02.5, 12.1.2 and 12.1.2.4.1] ii. After collegiate enrollment, you accepted prize money based on place finish or performance in an athletics event from the sponsor of the event and the amount of prize money did not exceed $300 above your actual and necessary expenses to participate in the event.
 
 
Did the World championship cost him $49,700 to compete in?  If not, he is out of luck.  
 
The one thing that may be up in the air is that it says, "from the sponsor of the event."  Is USAW a sponsor of the world championships?  I'm not sure the answer to that...But I don't think it really matters, since that is simply an exception, and he is undoubtedly using his athletic skill to receive (deferred) payment in wrestling.  
Edited by Billyhoyle

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Snyder and Ryan have both said that they have talked with OSU and NCAA compliance on this very topic. I would trust that those people are crossing their t's and dotting the i's for this to work. Unless you are in that circle you really don't know what loophole/work around they came up with.

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Snyder and Ryan have both said that they have talked with OSU and NCAA compliance on this very topic. I would trust that those people are crossing their t's and dotting the i's for this to work. Unless you are in that circle you really don't know what loophole/work around they came up with.

Correct, I have no idea what justification the Ohio State compliance office is relying on. I just know what the rules say and that there is no precedent for this in any sport, while a number of athletes have rejected prize money in the past due to concerns of losing eligibility. I am just predicting that another university will file a complaint (probably fall of 2016 when he re-enrolls) and the NCAA will either make him forfeit the deferred payment or lose his amateur status.  I don't think this is a precedent the NCAA wants to set while they are fighting for basketball and football players to not be paid.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Maybe Jason was saying it was just a ceremonial check in that he isn't taking the money? It's none of our business, I am sure people are looking out if, in fact, he wants to continue wrestling in NCAAs.

That's how I took Jason's comments also.

 

Whether Mr. Snyder is accepting the money or not, I am sure USA Wrestling would do a photo op for all the novelty checks as it is great publicity for wrestling and will help motivate more people to donate to the Living The Dream Fund. USA Wrestling is offering the money and is willing to honor their commitment. If he declines to accept the money it doesn't change anything.

 

Honestly, I am not sure why he would accept the money, if it was deemed to not be part of the approved medal fund. His next three years of scholarship would make it a wash in real dollars. The actual cost of student housing, meals, and University sponsored travel for competition would alone eat up the $50k if he were not on scholarship. And that doesn't even include the value that I suspect he and his family put on an education. It isn't like he would take a paid staff position like a lot of guys do since he wouldn't have a degree. Most post grads seem to find the fundraising and self support they face after school to be stressful while they are pursuing their Olympic dream. Now, an Olympic Gold and $250k would change things...

 

But really I don't care what he decides. It is up to him, his family, and the coaches. Whatever is decided, I will be the best decision for him given what they know at the time.

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Does the fact that he will receive this payment for freestyle wrestling have anything to do with it? He is not being paid for a folkstyle (NCAA sport), thus meaning the rules perhaps do not apply? I'm guessing here, but perhaps future payment for a non-sanctioned NCAA sport helps him get around this.

 

Guys play professional baseball, and go back and play college football ie Brandon Weeden. I would imagine this is the same situation, or at least could be argued as such. 

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Does the fact that he will receive this payment for freestyle wrestling have anything to do with it? He is not being paid for a folkstyle (NCAA sport), thus meaning the rules perhaps do not apply? I'm guessing here, but perhaps future payment for a non-sanctioned NCAA sport helps him get around this.

 

Guys play professional baseball, and go back and play college football ie Brandon Weeden. I would imagine this is the same situation, or at least could be argued as such.

No, same sport.

 

That would be like winning the 1600MM in the Diamond League, collecting the money, and then saying you can keep your scholarship to run cross country because it is a different sport.

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it's like Billyhoyle is hoping he's ineligible ... it reads like a pre-"I told you so" or "how could they be so stupid" type of post.

 

The people in compliance are professionals. It's their job to know this. I would doubt anyone at the Ohio RTC or Ohio State need anyone's assistance in this forum.

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You might be thinking of skier Jeremy Bloom.  The NCAA said it'd be OK if he received money for skiing, but not for any sking endorsement deals .  Stupid rule, IMO.

No, the ruling made perfect sense. Money for a particular sport you're able to distinguish but money for endorsements are tied to the individual and can't be separated for different activities.

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it's like Billyhoyle is hoping he's ineligible ... it reads like a pre-"I told you so" or "how could they be so stupid" type of post.

 

The people in compliance are professionals. It's their job to know this. I would doubt anyone at the Ohio RTC or Ohio State need anyone's assistance in this forum.

Sounds to me like Billy is just trying to get to the bottom of this issue. He is even posting evidence from the NCAA. Frankly someone in the wrestling media should also be trying to look into this. Snyder's NCAA future and eligibility should be the biggest story in the sport. 19 year old Olympic champ from the defending NCAA champion team.

 

I'm sure the compliance people at all the major football and basketball programs are professionals too, but somehow there keep being constant infractions and sanctions being handed down.

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it's like Billyhoyle is hoping he's ineligible ... it reads like a pre-"I told you so" or "how could they be so stupid" type of post.

 

The people in compliance are professionals. It's their job to know this. I would doubt anyone at the Ohio RTC or Ohio State need anyone's assistance in this forum.

 

I hope he remains eligible...I actually root for Ohio State (that's why I spent a bit of time to look into it).  I just don't think the NCAA will allow a student athlete to receive $50,000 and remain eligible when there is no rule or precedent to allow for it.  It seems too risky for them and opens up a huge can of worms with (for example) NCAA basketball players entering offseason tournaments with prize money (with deferred payments).  That's my opinion, from my understanding of the rules.  I haven't seen a reason that it would be allowed other than, "the Ohio State compliance office/Tom Ryan said so and know what they are doing."  

 

You're one of the best journalists that covers wrestling, JB...I'm sure you are at least partly curious why they are so confident despite the rules seeming to be so black and white. Compliance offices are sometimes wrong in their interpretation of NCAA rules/try to push the boundaries of what is allowed.  

 

Here is my guess:  Deferring payments retains his eligibility until fall semester of 2016..Then we will know if he gets any additional $$ from Rio, and the issue will have to be addressed by the NCAA at that time.  At that point, assuming the NCAA enforces its rules as they seem to be written, he will have to make the decision whether to forfeit the $$ or lose eligiblity.  If he ends up with 300K of prize money sitting around, I think the decision could be a big story outside of the wrestling world.

 

No matter what, my opinion on this will never be, "how could they be so stupid."  Kyle Snyder earned the money and the right to make this decision (if the NCAA says he has to choose).  He's smart enough to make a choice that is best for him, and i'll be a Snyder fan no matter who he competes for/do not fault him whatsoever if he takes the money.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Edit: posted wrong document before. Fixed now

 

 
I just have a basic understanding of the rules from when I used to have to know them, and did a quick google search when the issue first came up.
 
 
Here is the form:
 
 
 
 
With the important section:
 
2. Amateurism – All Sports.
 
a. You are not eligible for participation in a sport if you have ever:
 
(1) Taken pay, or the promise of pay, for competing in that sport. [bylaw 12.1.2 and 12.1.2.1]
 
(2) Agreed (orally or in writing) to compete in professional athletics in that sport. • Exception: Prior to collegiate enrollment, in sports other than men's ice hockey and skiing, you agreed to compete on a professional team provided the agreement did not provide for more than actual and necessary expenses and you did not receive more than actual and necessary expenses. [bylaws 12.1.2 and 12.2.5.1] \
 
(3) Played on any professional athletics team as defined by the NCAA in that sport. • Exception: Prior to enrollment, in sports other than men's ice hockey and skiing, you competed on a professional team provided you did not receive more than actual and necessary expenses. [bylaws 12.1.2 and 12.2.3.2.1]
 
(4) Used your athletics skill for pay in any form in that sport. [bylaws 12.1.2 and 12.1.2.4]
 
• Exceptions: i. Prior to collegiate enrollment, in sports other than tennis, you accepted prize money based on place finish or performance in an athletics event from the sponsor of the event and the amount of prize money did not exceed $300 above your actual and necessary expenses to participate in the event; or [bylaws 12.02.5, 12.1.2 and 12.1.2.4.1] ii. After collegiate enrollment, you accepted prize money based on place finish or performance in an athletics event from the sponsor of the event and the amount of prize money did not exceed $300 above your actual and necessary expenses to participate in the event.
 
 
Did the World championship cost him $49,700 to compete in?  If not, he is out of luck.  
 
The one thing that may be up in the air is that it says, "from the sponsor of the event."  Is USAW a sponsor of the world championships?  I'm not sure the answer to that...But I don't think it really matters, since that is simply an exception, and he is undoubtedly using his athletic skill to receive (deferred) payment in wrestling.  

 

Isn't the Olympic Gold Fund also addressed in the NCAA bylaws? I thought I saw that.

 

My only question is if the OGF and LTD fund are considered interchangeable by the NCAA. I assumed they were, BUT......

 

The professionals that JB cites should know, but so should some folks from USA Wrestling. It is their fund and this is their website.

 

The conspiracy theorist in me says that USAW would rather Kyle Snyder forego.....um.......I won't finish this thought.

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Am I curious? Yup.

 

Am I worried? Absolutely not.

 

This only becomes a story if someone royally screws the pooch. The moment Kyle Snyder won that medal, after the celebration died down, I'm sure Tom and Louie were on the phone with their compliance (if they hadn't been already). 

 

It's not like this Living The Dream thing is a new concept, it's been in place since 2009 and while this is the first time an active college male athlete has gotten the opportunity to win the bonus, I have an absolute belief both tOSU, Ohio RTC, USA Wrestling and the LTD Fund are all over this. 

 

There is no room for the "oh, I didn't know"

 

As far as my experiences with compliance issues goes, it's when there's been an assumption or something's been hidden. Everything I've heard about this is there have been no assumptions and everything's been out in the open. With all the scrutiny tOSU has been under over the years, this is one they are not going to botch, because it'd be an absolute sh*tshow of worse publicity if they screw up a World champion in a non-revenue sport's eligibility vs. dealing with free tattoos and coaches who no longer coach other sports there. 

 

While there's some agenda-based reporting and advocacy in my line of work as it pertains to wrestling, this is clearly a case of people wanting to know vs. people actually having to know. This is a non-story until someone screws up and it becomes headline news.

 

Am I keeping an eye on things? Yes. Am I curious about it? Yes. Do I need to spend a lot of time asking coaches and compliance officers the same questions they're being asked by their administrators and coaches? Not right now. 

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Am I curious? Yup.

 

Am I worried? Absolutely not.

 

This only becomes a story if someone royally screws the pooch. The moment Kyle Snyder won that medal, after the celebration died down, I'm sure Tom and Louie were on the phone with their compliance (if they hadn't been already). 

 

It's not like this Living The Dream thing is a new concept, it's been in place since 2009 and while this is the first time an active college male athlete has gotten the opportunity to win the bonus, I have an absolute belief both tOSU, Ohio RTC, USA Wrestling and the LTD Fund are all over this. 

 

There is no room for the "oh, I didn't know"

 

As far as my experiences with compliance issues goes, it's when there's been an assumption or something's been hidden. Everything I've heard about this is there have been no assumptions and everything's been out in the open. With all the scrutiny tOSU has been under over the years, this is one they are not going to botch, because it'd be an absolute sh*tshow of worse publicity if they screw up a World champion in a non-revenue sport's eligibility vs. dealing with free tattoos and coaches who no longer coach other sports there. 

 

While there's some agenda-based reporting and advocacy in my line of work as it pertains to wrestling, this is clearly a case of people wanting to know vs. people actually having to know. This is a non-story until someone screws up and it becomes headline news.

 

Am I keeping an eye on things? Yes. Am I curious about it? Yes. Do I need to spend a lot of time asking coaches and compliance officers the same questions they're being asked by their administrators and coaches? Not right now. 

 

Snyder being allowed to remain eligible and keep the money may actually be a bigger story than if they ban him.  It would be a huge about-face on their rules concerning prize money/being paid to compete.  I think it is unprecedented for somebody to be allowed to accept that much money outside of the, "Operation Gold" program.  

 

Here's just a recent example of somebody who went pro because she couldn't accept prize money:

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fastest-american-woman-in-the-nyc-marathon-is-a-college-freshman-1446163524

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Am I keeping an eye on things? Yes. Am I curious about it? Yes. Do I need to spend a lot of time asking coaches and compliance officers the same questions they're being asked by their administrators and coaches? Not right now.

I think that is far too trustworthy an approach for a reporter. I highly doubt the compliance department at TOSU cares much about this issue. They have millions on the line with their other sports.

 

How this is being handled is a story no matter if they botch it or not. It means something for other wrestlers coming up as well. Seems this story is being handled like most in the wrestling world - very little reporting and just toting the lines coming from coaches.

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