Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MSU158

My $.02 take on Grapple on the Gridiron.

Recommended Posts

The weather was as good as could be expected.  The turnout was as well.  Iowa deserves a ton of credit for pulling the event off.  Still, OkState deserves every bit as much(if not more) credit for being willing to travel, and participate, in an outdoors event at Iowa in mid-November.

 

My take on each team overall:

 

 Iowa is always ready to wrestle.  In fact, over the past 5 years or so, they may be more ready to wrestle during the regular season than they are in March.  Home field advantage was also big.  They were also coached perfectly in regards to the new rules regarding the "cylinder". They won the matches they should and wrestled smart(Cooper notwithstanding) in the matches they lost. They have 6 super mean guys that will AA and need 1 or 2 to step up between 141, 157, 165 and 285 if they want to win it all in March.

 

OkState has a TON of talented wrestlers.  Unfortunately several of them didn't come to wrestle.  I wasn't really surprised all that much since it is early in the season and Smith has seemed to prescribe(at least recently) more to the peaking in March mentality.  What they decide to do at 133, 157 and 197 could decide if they win it all in March(which I am still predicting)!

 

Weight by weight:

 

125: Gilman is clearly better than Klimara.  No suprise there.  I don't expect a win out of Klimara, but it will be closer when/if they meet again in March.  They both will AA, just Gilman is top 3 and Klimara is bottom 4.

 

133: Clark is a beast.  Still, his style doesn't lean towards bonus points against solid competition.  In fact, he is more likely to pin than major.  He is a hammer on top, but isn't a point scoring machine in neutral.  He will most likely beat everyone not name Brewer this season(although I am looking forward to watching him go at it with Taylor).  Harding is solid but unlikely to win more than 2 matches in March.

 

141: Heil is legit.  Wrestled a very controlled and calculating match against someone who's sole job was to not give up bonus.  Heil will be wrestling Friday night and quite possibly on Saturday night.  Iowa needs Grothus at 141 cuz Ryan isn't scoring any points in March.

 

149:  Sorenson is legit.  His ride is ugly(although not as ugly as T. Nelson's) but very effective.  Sorenson and Collica in March will most likely mirror my predictions at 125.

 

157:  Marstellar is 3x the wrestler Cooper is.  Unfortunately, he has a 10x lesser gas tank at 157.  If this doesn't get fixed by March, Smith needs to pull the trigger on his son if he wants to win.  "IF" Cooper qualifies he is at best a 2-2 guy in March.

 

165:  Dieringer didn't quite have the urgency I expected.  He destroyed a guy who was clearly out to not get tech'd.  Still he should have got the tech.  One guy will be a 3x champ come March.  The other may not be the starter.  Still, doubtfull Iowa scores points in March at 165.

 

174:  Crutchmer is the better wrestler.  Meyer is the better Gladiator.  In March, I think Crutchmer improves his gas tank considerably and is a finalist.  Meyer will end up somewhere in the middle(further outside on a podium) as an AA.

 

184:  Brooks is a beast.  Healthy and motivated, he could be a finalist.  He can beat everyone but Dean.  If that version of Rodgers is now beating Boyd, OkState will be lucky to score any points at that weight in March.

 

197:  Burak is a tree trunk at 197.  Unfortunately, he moves like a tree trunk.  Still, its nearly impossible for one man(without a chainsaw) to take down a tree.  Burak will finish top 5.  197 will most likely be a blank for OkState, unless they get it figured out.

 

285:  Marsden started out slow but won comfortably.  Stoll is still a Greco style wrestler.  Fortunately for him, 285 is the easiest weight to be competitive without leg attacks.  Marsden will finish top 5.  Stoll will beat anyone not top 20, be a toss-up with 11-20 and lose to the top 10.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MSU, I think Ok State has four problem weights, and judging by what you wrote above you believe it too. Part of it is conditioning, I get that. After watching today do you still have Okie State winning the NCAA Tournament? I know March is a long ways off, but you still like the Cowboys to win it this year? 

Edited by TBar1977

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marstellar's gas tank is due to cutting weight and possibly not managing his cut effectively. He will need to learn how to do this or go up to 165. You don't get gassed in the first round after being the OSU wrestling room for the last three months...you get gassed because you are cutting and not cutting right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tbar,

 

A B S O L U T E L Y.  I expect much better gas tanks in March.

 

125:  Still gonna AA 5-7.

133:  If Brock is truly a notch above Harding, Smith will pull his shirt and instead of 2-3 pts in March they may get 8-10.

141:  Heil is still my pick at 141.

149:  Collica getting beat that bad by Sorenson didn't change where I would put him.  In fact, it may help OkState as I think Sorenson showed he is good enough to beat Retherford.

157:  See 133.  If Marstellar can't get his gas tank managed, they pull Smith off redshirt and AA either way.

165:  Champ, Champ and Champ............

174:  I still believe Crutchmer is the best at 174(BoJo will be back down at 165 when Ryan pulls Martin's shirt).

184:  Was only expecting 2-3 points here and still think that is likely.

197:  Anything better than today is a bonus but not needed.

285:  Top 5 guy today and top 5 guy in March.

 

PSU losing Nevills only further cements my belief in OkState!

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marstellar's gas tank is due to cutting weight and possibly not managing his cut effectively. He will need to learn how to do this or go up to 165. You don't get gassed in the first round after being the OSU wrestling room for the last three months...you get gassed because you are cutting and not cutting right. 

 

First off, Marstellar is not the first Cowboy to have immense talent and a laughable gas tank. Secondly, is there even a way for him to cut the "right" way and get down to 157? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBar,

 

Of course you think that.  If you could give birth to Sanderson's child you would have the sex change done IMMEDIATELY.

 

Let's go over this again, and I will try to even give you the benefit of the doubt at some weights.

 

125: Megaludis +10 and that is with them both AA'ing.  

133: Maybe Conaway +1 but if Brock is already taking it to Harding this may actually be a +4 or so for OkState.

141: Heil +5  I am thoroughly convinced he will place ahead of Gulibon

149: Retherford +3 I see Retherford wrestling for 3rd/4th and Collica for 5th/6th

157: If Marstellar figures out his gas/weight cut issues he AA's, If not Smith does. Still I will give Nolf a +3.

165: OkState +24  Love Rasheed all you want.  He won't be on the podium in March.

174: Crutchmer is better than Nickal, period.  However, I will give a reserved +5

184: McCutcheon +2.  Even if he is improved I don't see him reaching the podium.

197: McIntosh +19

285: Marsden +11

 

For those not good at math when words are involved that is 10+1+3+3+2+19 for PSU=38 and 5+24+5+11=45

 

That has OkState winning by 7 and that is with no AA's for OkState at 133, 184 and 197.  PSU doesn't AA at 133, 165, 184 and 285.  Nothing I calculated is more than the mean for both teams.  Hence, your argument for PSU having a larger margin for error is looking through your PSU tinted glasses...........................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, Marstellar is not the first Cowboy to have immense talent and a laughable gas tank. Secondly, is there even a way for him to cut the "right" way and get down to 157? 

 

Does anyone think it's possible that Chance isn't knowledgeable about the best way to make weight? I was always under the assumption that he was just so good in his high school and earlier days that he never really had to cut hard. I know the NCAA has regulations to mitigate kids from doing things like gorging themselves after weigh-in and the first day or two after a match, then starving themselves until the next weigh-in (what my brother did in high school!) and I assume OSU has nutritionists on staff to help their wrestlers manage their weight, but I still wonder if maybe Chance is still figuring his body & diet out.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I mentioned in the dual thread that GotG was an amazing event. Great exposure for the sport, and I loved that U of I's president was in attendance. But the outdoor venue did take a little bit away from the electricity that is an Iowa home dual. CHA is just a pressure cooker, so much louder and far more raucous. Tough to pull that off in a football stadium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Marstellar was sick.

 

A lot of college guys were so good in high school they wrestled whatever weight they wanted, and managed their weight.  College comes around and they have to do a little more then manage their weight.  It doesnt ever get easy, but the body does handle and respond to the weight cutting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, Marstellar is not the first Cowboy to have immense talent and a laughable gas tank. Secondly, is there even a way for him to cut the "right" way and get down to 157? 

I have a hard time believing that his gas tank is due to the training at OSU....secondly, yes there is a way to get your weight down and manage it. I am surprised that you would even ask that question. How many times have we heard a similar story of wrestlers commenting on their success being in part on learning how to manage their nutrition and getting their weight down and managed correctly. I speak from personal experience doing it the wrong way.... Did you not ever cut weight? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone think it's possible that Chance isn't knowledgeable about the best way to make weight? I was always under the assumption that he was just so good in his high school and earlier days that he never really had to cut hard. I know the NCAA has regulations to mitigate kids from doing things like gorging themselves after weigh-in and the first day or two after a match, then starving themselves until the next weigh-in (what my brother did in high school!) and I assume OSU has nutritionists on staff to help their wrestlers manage their weight, but I still wonder if maybe Chance is still figuring his body & diet out.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I mentioned in the dual thread that GotG was an amazing event. Great exposure for the sport, and I loved that U of I's president was in attendance. But the outdoor venue did take a little bit away from the electricity that is an Iowa home dual. CHA is just a pressure cooker, so much louder and far more raucous. Tough to pull that off in a football stadium.

 

John Smith and Chris Perry and all the olympians on the Cowboys staff know just about every trick there is to make weight.  Chance wrestled 165lbs last year, so 157lbs might be a pretty decent cut for him.  Anyways, I dont expect him to gas after 3 minutes the whole season, they will figure it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBar,

 

Of course you think that.  If you could give birth to Sanderson's child you would have the sex change done IMMEDIATELY.

 

Let's go over this again, and I will try to even give you the benefit of the doubt at some weights.

 

125: Megaludis +10 and that is with them both AA'ing.  

133: Maybe Conaway +1 but if Brock is already taking it to Harding this may actually be a +4 or so for OkState.

141: Heil +5  I am thoroughly convinced he will place ahead of Gulibon

149: Retherford +3 I see Retherford wrestling for 3rd/4th and Collica for 5th/6th

157: If Marstellar figures out his gas/weight cut issues he AA's, If not Smith does. Still I will give Nolf a +3.

165: OkState +24  Love Rasheed all you want.  He won't be on the podium in March.

174: Crutchmer is better than Nickal, period.  However, I will give a reserved +5

184: McCutcheon +2.  Even if he is improved I don't see him reaching the podium.

197: McIntosh +19

285: Marsden +11

 

For those not good at math when words are involved that is 10+1+3+3+2+19 for PSU=38 and 5+24+5+11=45

 

That has OkState winning by 7 and that is with no AA's for OkState at 133, 184 and 197.  PSU doesn't AA at 133, 165, 184 and 285.  Nothing I calculated is more than the mean for both teams.  Hence, your argument for PSU having a larger margin for error is looking through your PSU tinted glasses...........................

 

 

 

SMH. Your prior post has Okie State winning three titles. How many times has that happened in the past 35 years? I'll save you the trouble. Twice. One team with Esposito, Hendricks, Pendleton, Rosholt and Mocco. C'mon, this team doesn't have the kind of horse power. The other team had Alan Fried, Pat Smith and Mark Branch. Why should this year's Ok State team do what 33 of the past 35 could not? 

 

Plus Klimara, and freshman Brock and JoJo are going to AA? Brock is going to score 8 to 10 points? LOL, that prediction would be like me saying Vincenzo Joseph could step into the PSU line up and score 8 to 10 points at this year's NCAA Tournament. That is laughable. Put down the crack pipe already. 

 

Oklahoma State has a nice team this year, but they don't get an NCAA Championship based solely off your unrealistic internet points. 

Edited by TBar1977

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LemonPie,

 

Thank you from the bottom of my heart. The fact that I am able to elicit such feelings from a troll of your caliber makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I hope we are able to nurture and cultivate this feeling for years to come. Have a wonderful day and enjoy the season!

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBar,

 

I never said they will have 3 champs. I said I believe they have 3 guys that are the best at their weight. If I had to pick I would say they end up with two champs or a champ and 2 seconds. Heil and Crutchmer benefit from being at weights that don't have a ton of proven AA's. Dieringer is a given. It's not worth an argument. You can continue to love your Lions and I will continue to pick the team I think will win. I have picked PSU to win several times over the past 10 years.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBar,

 

I never said they will have 3 champs. I said I believe they have 3 guys that are the best at their weight. If I had to pick I would say they end up with two champs or a champ and 2 seconds. Heil and Crutchmer benefit from being at weights that don't have a ton of proven AA's. Dieringer is a given. It's not worth an argument. You can continue to love your Lions and I will continue to pick the team I think will win. I have picked PSU to win several times over the past 10 years.....

 

 

 

MSU, c'mon, the three guys you are claiming are the best at their weight include Deiringer which nobody would argue about as he is a prohibitive favorite to win 165, but they also include two guys who combined to go 10-13 against ranked wrestlers last year. 10-13. Heil also lost to 3 guys who were not even ranked. On top of thet, both of them have already lost this year!

 

Crutchmer looked slow against Epperly and was fortunate that Meyer gave up a somewhat sloppy takedown near the end. Heil lost to a great wrestler, but a guy who is a 133. He will lose more matches this year. 

 

These guys are hardly favorites to win at NCAA's. They are in a a pretty nice size group where anyone could win if everything broke just right. They could also both end up as 7 seeds. That is the best you can say about them or anyone else in those two weights. 

 

And Kaid Brock scoring 10 points this year? Is it possible considering anything is possible, sure. Would anyone in their right mind bet on it? Nope. 

 

And I have NOT picked Penn State every year. I picked Iowa in 2011 and I picked Ohio State last year (which you know already), so any claim you would make that I pick Penn State every year isn't right. 

Edited by TBar1977

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comments about the "right way" to get down to 157 were not because I don't know about cutting weight. I wanted to illustrate that maybe the weight class is just too low for him. Some people don't cut weight well, and Marstellar may be one of them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tbar,

 

Do you actually read my posts?  Your attempt at counterpoints actually need me to SAY what you are countering.  I never picked Brock to score 10.  I said that if he continues to develop and beat up on Harding, by transitive property he would have the  "potential" (the word I used was may) to reach the lower part of the podium.  Also,  I think Heil and Crutchmer are end of the season wrestlers.  They peak properly.  As an example, I was a big fan of J. Jaggers and thought he was the favorite BOTH seasons he won it.  How many losses did he take during the regular season?  How many people kept saying he wouldn't win it all based on his regular season? I am not saying they are as good as Jaggers but they are similar and both have weaker weights.  You can pick against them(and it is always easier to pick the field against 1 guy) and I will continue to believe they are the best at their weights.  I don't believe they both will win, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did and expect them both to definitely finish top 4............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tbar,

 

Did you also use two 1 point losses in an All Star Classic with experimental rules to say they have both lost this season?  I am pretty sure they are still undefeated this season..................Blast away because it best fits your narrative, but they are legitimate title contenders!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tbar,

 

A B S O L U T E L Y.  I expect much better gas tanks in March.

 

125:  Still gonna AA 5-7.

133:  If Brock is truly a notch above Harding, Smith will pull his shirt and instead of 2-3 pts in March they may get 8-10.

141:  Heil is still my pick at 141.

149:  Collica getting beat that bad by Sorenson didn't change where I would put him.  In fact, it may help OkState as I think Sorenson showed he is good enough to beat Retherford.

157:  See 133.  If Marstellar can't get his gas tank managed, they pull Smith off redshirt and AA either way.

165:  Champ, Champ and Champ............

174:  I still believe Crutchmer is the best at 174(BoJo will be back down at 165 when Ryan pulls Martin's shirt).

184:  Was only expecting 2-3 points here and still think that is likely.

197:  Anything better than today is a bonus but not needed.

285:  Top 5 guy today and top 5 guy in March.

 

PSU losing Nevills only further cements my belief in OkState!

 

 

 

MSU, you pretty clearly DID say that Kaid Brock could score 8 to 10 points in March (the NCAA Tournament). 8 to 10 includes 10, so you said what you said. If you want to back track now that is fine with me since I am trying to illustrate what you said is pie in the sky thinking to begin with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as Heil and Crutchmer are concerned, both are pretty good wrestlers. Neither has proven to be head and shoulders above a half dozen wrestlers at their weight class. The losses to ranked wrestlers illustrates that point. And again, there are at least 8 guys who can win each of those weights. 

 

Your scenario seems to me to give the absolute high end best result for all of their guys. Not worth arguing it any more. You have your opinion, which is great. We'll see eventually if you are right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...