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IronChef

Dake to 86kg for good

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I'm excited to see David Taylor up there.  In his interview, he said he's excited to focus his time on wrestling again, instead of cutting weight/dieting.  I guess that took a lot away from him.  Him and his coaches know very well that the wrestling style will change with the weight jump, so I'm sure he will be fine.  We might even see the best David Taylor yet.  

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That is interesting, if Dake could or would go up and down, 74 to 86 to 74 again.

 

Still a ways off, and may be a moot point, but like pamela said, after Rio, what if JB does take a year off, or 3 years off, or just retire, etc. and 74 opens up again in 2017?

Edited by 2td3nf

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Wouldn't another rationale behind this move is to make the lineup for Team USA stronger at Rio?  Dake, Taylor, or Ruth at 86 KG seem to be a step in the right direction especially when we have Burroughs below them.  In my opinion two medals for our team is better than 1.  Of course, like someone said previously, we have to qualify the weight first otherwise this is just smoke. 

2 medals are certainly better than 1.   They will be won at 74 kg and 97 kg. 

 

3 would be even better, and 125 kg is where that 3rd medal would likely come from.   

 

Medal at 66 is certainly plausible if we can get Pico or Green in there, otherwise another disappointment there

 

nothing from 57.  It's just not happening.   and 86 has about as much chance of medaling as Metcalf does

 

Lets be realistic for a change

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Gotcha, thank you! It's amazing how far sports nutrition has come - I wonder if it would have been possible 20 years ago?

 

The reason why I was asking about Dake bumping up and then possibly back down is because I overheard a debate long ago where someone said Ronda Rousey could not bump up to a next weight class to fight that weight's champion (not the woman who knocked her out last week, but a Brazilian[?] fighter whose name I can't remember right now) because once she adds the additional muscle she would not be able to cut back down to her original weight.

 

Anyway, this makes me feel better about Dake's options. I know Jordan Burroughs says he's all in until 2020, but you can never tell where his career may go if he strikes gold again -- endorsement deals, Hollywood, coaching, MMA, merchandising, appearances, etc. (or, heaven forbid, injury).

 

 

Completely false

 

That's actually George's St. Pierre's excuse for not ever facing Anderson Silva

 

Rousey uses various excuses to avoid Christine Cyborg Justino.   Ronda was actually cutting to get to 145, where Justino was the champion.   They were both cutting,  Justino probably a little harder.   When the promotion wanted Ronda to challenge Cyborg for the Strike Force championship at 145, she tucked and said she would be right back, she was going down to 135 to fight the champion there, and she would return to fight Cyborg for a mega fight.   

 

Ronda went down to 135 and then refused to ever go back up, except for Gina Carrano.  For her she would in fact go back to 145, but certainly not for Cyborg.   Zuffa bought Strike Force and eventually folded it.   They brought Ronda over to the UFC and named her their champion.   Cyborg has pressed the issue, challenging the recently defeated Rousey to a champion vs champion fight, and offered to meet in the middle at 140.   Rousey refused and Dana White would go on to say 135 or nothing.    Ronda would not even be willing to fight at 135.1

 

I've never heard Ronda say it was because she wouldn't be able to come back down, as it is she comes down from the 160s, to make 135.   Simply stopping at 140 for a Cyborg fight would have zero negative impact on her.   

 

GSP on the other hand, had a whole assortment of excuses of why he could not fight Anderson Silva and the most popular one being the excuse you listed as attributed to Rousey. 

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Off topic - Women are different from guys, rousey would be at a distinct disadvantage going up a weight. She shouldn't do it. But she would be able to suck down to her normal weight it would just take her longer to pack on muscle to go up a weight, a lot longer.

 

Keep in mind, Ronda has claimed she can beat Cain Valazquez and Floyd Mayweather.   What's a few extra pounds in order to fight a woman?  If Ronda believes any of the things she's said about her fight prowess, moving up to 140 for a Cyborg fight, should be a breeze.   

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Both wrestlers (ki and dt) will have to prove that their tendons, joints, cartilage etc can withstand the extra torque, weight and impacts of a higher class. Dake already has had some issues at the lower weight. Don't know that Taylor has had any issues. Surviving the jump is not all about muscle. Injuries may play a greater role in determining who survives, improves and thrives.

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As of late ive been wondering about the injury aspect of college wresting, and not saying its from over training but that strength training via free weights might not be a good fit for westling in some/most cases.  David Taylor said in flo's video he couldnt lift weights and I dont ever remember him being sick or injured. Maybe there is something to it.  It could be just that kids are pushing too hard using too much weight.  I dont follow David Taylor's career very closely.

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The most muscle mass ever gained in a year is 8 pounds, measured scientifically, using steroids.

False. I gained 22 lbs of muscle between the beginning of my freshman and sophomore year while lowering my bodyfat 8%, no steriods, just a good diet, a good weight lifting program, and hard work.

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The most muscle mass ever gained in a year is 8 pounds, measured scientifically, using steroids. I think Taylor stands a better shot of growing into 86. It looks like Taylor won't be able to go down to 74 but I think Dake could up to the trials. USA still has to qualify at 86 so who knows it might not matter. With Dakes defense I think he will still be good at 86. Taylor might benefit the most at 86 with having less oxygen and glycogen sucking fast twitch muscles from not being able to lift and cutting over the years. Dake having been able to lift might not benefit from going up to 86.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Neal Went from 189 to college heavyweight, low bodyfat as well.

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As has been alluded to: there's more to gaining good weight than just muscle mass itself.  If you start a new lifting program, you stimulate testosterone production that helps with muscle growth, but also with bone density.  If you add lean muscle, you also naturally carry more water weight.  ...and so on.  I believe the quoted statistic could be true--just very oversimplified to consider only raw muscle mass itself and nothing of what other elements naturally come with gained muscle and general strength.  You can definitely gain 15 or more pounds in a year and not gain body fat.

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If you said you did it I believe you. In my quoted statistic the case study was a guy who was already quite large. Height and frame wise. My only point was that Dake will be undersized at 86kg, and won't have enough time to pack on enough mass. Taylor might be able to because he has a bigger frame and hasn't been free weight training. I would love it, however, if I am wrong.

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If you said you did it I believe you. In my quoted statistic the case study was a guy who was already quite large. Height and frame wise. My only point was that Dake will be undersized at 86kg, and won't have enough time to pack on enough mass. Taylor might be able to because he has a bigger frame and hasn't been free weight training. I would love it, however, if I am wrong.

Where exactly was this case? Source? Citation? You stated a FACT, using the word EVER. I want to read the study myself. Dake will have plenty of time to do it.

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The reality is DT has a lot more frame to work with than KD. He is at least two if not three inches taller and has been purposely not lifting for years (highly doubt he'd lie about something like that) so as to not gain weight. Dake weighed 171 lb the day after his fourth NCAA finals. He might have gained a few pounds of lean mass since, but he is easily 10+ lbs smaller than DT fully hydrated and not sucked out to death and that's with DT eating like a 12 year old girl and not lifting.

 

Whether or not the added size will help DT overcome the gap in skill remains to be seen, but Dake is just too small for 86 kg to be his most competitive weight even with another year of lifting. There is only so much weight you can pack on a 5'10" frame before you start to give up some of the athletic traits that make Dake Dake. Not to mention that the genetic limit for how much lean (key word) muscle you can pack on to a developed and reasonably trained adult frame is in the 20-25 lb range. It is exceedingly difficult and often impossible to gain more weight than that, especially as a wrestler since you have to train your aerobic energy pathway as well to be competitive in the sport (aerobic training can be quite catabolic, meaning it tears muscle down). It's not like bodybuilding where you can just pack on the size and show up and flex.

 

So I am not misunderstood, in no way am I suggesting DT beats Dake at 86 nor am I suggesting Dake has no shot at being the Olimpic rep. I honestly don't have any idea what'll happen. But let's not kid ourselves as to how big he can get in, what, five or six months now. If Dake ends up the rep, it will be in spite of his considerable size handicap. That would be a true testament to how great an athlete he is and, more so, how uniquely sick JB is.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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The reality is Dake has managed his undersized "handicap" for years and years.  One thing I've noticed is when Dake falls behind Taylor, he seems to call upon superhuman strength long enough to score retaliatory points.   It's like the Packers vs the Vikings.  Sigh.

Edited by headshuck

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The reality is Dake has managed his undersized "handicap" for years and years.  One thing I've noticed is when Dake falls behind Taylor, he seems to call upon superhuman strength long enough to score retaliatory points.   It's like the Packers vs the Vikings.  Sigh.

 

But this time, he's jumping the equivalent of almost FOUR 8-lb weight classes. Not exactly like going 165 when you're really a 157 lber, Even a Viking fan has to understand the difference.

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But this time, he's jumping the equivalent of almost FOUR 8-lb weight classes. Not exactly like going 165 when you're really a 157 lber, Even a Viking fan has to understand the difference.

 

Well, I did the math and it's much closer to THREE 8-lb weight classes than FOUR.  

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The thing is Burroughs and Dake are a bit small for even 163 and their true scratch weight class would be 154. Taylor is a huge 163 so I say Dake may still beat him at 189 but I think Taylor will do better against the international guys. So basically I hope Taylor wins it.

Edited by PRyan2012

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The thing is Burroughs and Dake are a bit small for even 163 and their true scratch weight class would be 154. Taylor is a huge 163 so I say Dake may still beat him at 189 but I think Taylor will do better against the international guys. So basically I hope Taylor wins it.

bit small. based on what?

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Yeah I put on 10 lb lean weight by accident over a summer just from push-ups, chin-ups and eating. Probably depends on age though, I was pretty young.

 

Regarding mma fighters, at least GSP was respectful of Silva. He didn't want to get beat up by the bigger guy and I respect that. Rouseys combination of ceaseless trash talk without the courage to back it up was grating. Glad she finally lost.

 

Not sure if college wrestlers over train, but college wrestling does keep most guys from peaking for freestyle in their early 20s. By mid 20s and after, most wrestlers bodies- regardless of style- have a ton of mileage on them.

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Same thing here, not giving up on Dake at 86 either. Want to see him in a few more tough tourneys. But like many are saying, this looks like a much bigger jump in weight for Dake. I don't know. 

 

So I'm guessing Dake is staying at 86? 

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