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Thoughts on Taylor at 86kg

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I love imaginary arguments with no real answer that people actually get all worked up over.  

 

Sort of like.... Gee, who is more important... Santa or the Easter Bunny? 

 

You guys crack me up.

 

How about this for a concept.  

 

They were / are all amazing wrestlers and we will never know who is / was actually better because:

 

1] they lived in different times, and

 

2] often they were at different weights.

 

Wow... that was really difficult.

 

I've seen them all many times, and you know what... they were ALL amazing.

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Wade Schalles and Dan Gable are better than Smith and Burroughs? Furthermore, its not even close?

College achievements, not international. If we're talking NCAA championships you can't mix freestyle post-collegiate results. Apples and oranges. Otherwise Jamil Kelly is better than Pat Smith, Kyle Dake, and Logan Stieber were.

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College achievements, not international. If we're talking NCAA championships you can't mix freestyle post-collegiate results. Apples and oranges. Otherwise Jamil Kelly is better than Pat Smith, Kyle Dake, and Logan Stieber were.

 

In general, I'd agree.  But what abut a guy like John Smith, who won a world championship while still in college? 

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IMHO, the greatest 4x finalist has to be either Lee Kemp or Dick Hutton.  Both were 3x champs who lost by referee's decision the year they were runner-ups.  Both losses led to rule changes the following year.

 

In Kemp's freshman year,  Chuck Yagla won on a 2-1 split referee's decision after they'd finished still tied after OT ended. The following year the NCAA introduced a list of criteria to determine winners in still tied bouts.

 

Dick Hutton also lost on a referee's decision to Verne Gagne in the 1949 finals after they finished tied 1-1 at the end of regulation. (From 1949-1956, the NCAA didn't use OT.)  Hutton had scored a TD in the final seconds, but a kid came out from the timekeeper's table and told the ref that time had already expired.  So the ref waved the TD off and awarded the bout to Gagne.  The following year the NCAA added two mat judges who, along with the ref, would decide the winner when a bout ended in a tie.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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In general, I'd agree.  But what abut a guy like John Smith, who won a world championship while still in college? 

 

John Smith did win his first world championship "while still in college"... and he was 22 years old. He won his Olympic gold the next year at age 23.

 

Dan Gable also won his world gold at age 22, and Olympic gold at age 23. He was not in college however, since he graduated at age 21 (never had a red shirt).

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John Smith did win his first world championship "while still in college"... and he was 22 years old. He won his Olympic gold the next year at age 23.

 

Dan Gable also won his world gold at age 22, and Olympic gold at age 23. He was not in college however, since he graduated at age 21 (never had a red shirt).

 

Good point, Rossel.  Smith and Gable both had international success at a young age. John won his first world gold just a couple of weeks after celebrating his 22nd birthday.  (IIRC, Dan was a couple of months short of 23 when he won his.) 

 

Both world champs as 22-year olds, they went on to garner a total of 3 Olympic and 5 world golds for the USA!

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Easter bunny would thump Santa. Much better on his feet - ya can't get under the guy to attack legs. Santa is past his prime and sucks wind because of black lung from chimney dust. Bunny wins 8 of 10.

 

Oh I almost forgot that bunny is a 4x PA state champ; Santa won 4 in NJ and doesn't stand a snowballs chance.

Edited by swoopdown

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Easter bunny would thump Santa. Much better on his feet - ya can't get under the guy to attack legs. Santa is past his prime and sucks wind because of black lung from chimney dust. Bunny wins 8 of 10.

 

Oh I almost forgot that bunny is a 4x PA state champ; Santa won 4 in NJ and doesn't stand a snowballs chance.

Thank Venkateshwara for the explanation.  Now everthing is clear. I thought Bunny was from NY and now works at a Starbucks in Trump tower?  OH... that closed.

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Anyone who thinks Dake or Taylor have a shot are delusional. They need to go back to 163 now, then Dake to 154 in 2017. That gap is pretty huge. I used to think Taylor could win 189 in the US which is one of our weakest weights but now I am saying he will not come close here either. A chance maybe but surely not a world medal. Try and beat Burroughs who they are both bigger than.  

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A few things at 86:

 

1. Taylor said he has a real hard time cutting to 74. More importantly, hope he didn't get seriously injured at the GGP.

 

2. Herbert has a shoulder injury and might not even make it to the Trials. We'll see.

 

3. Sure, Gavin, Foster, Perry & Perry, Reader, Trotman, Keddy, etc can get real hot at the Trials, come out of the pack and win it. These guys are tough as nails, and it's sports, anything can happen.

 

4. It's still somewhat early, but for fun, I'm picking Dake, Ruth and Taylor to win the top 3 spots at the 86 kg Trials. (Listed them alphabetically, not necessarily picking Dake 1st, Ruth 2nd, and Taylor 3rd, just think they're going to be the top 3 Americans in whatever order.)  

Edited by 2td3nf

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John Smith did win his first world championship "while still in college"... and he was 22 years old. He won his Olympic gold the next year at age 23.

 

Dan Gable also won his world gold at age 22, and Olympic gold at age 23. He was not in college however, since he graduated at age 21 (never had a red shirt).

 

 

This is true (although Smith was two weeks into 22 and Gable was two months from 23 at both of their first world titles), but I think it misses the major point. The point isn't mere age since there's really not a significance, if any at all, between a 21 or 22 year old. The point isn't merely Smith's age, but the circumstances under which he won. Specifically, the fact that he was still a college student and wrestler and had collegiate folkstyle wrestling as his primary focus. After a 44 match season as a junior he switches to freestyle with people who exclusively trained freestyle and won the trials and the world championships. We need to remember that there were more wrestlers training freestyle at this time and that the gap between folkstyle and freestyle rules/style was larger than it was than the past by 1987. Also keep in mind due to  freshman having only 3 years of eligibility up until the early 70s, redshirts weren't as common. The ineligible freshman year served as the warm up or "redshirt year". Many simply wrestled their careers as true sophmores, true juniors, and true seniors. The USA's three champions in the 1972 Olympics (Wells, Gable, and Ben Peterson) all did not take redshirts during college. Ben Peterson won the 1972 Olympics 6 months after winning his final ncaa title! When Smith was wrestling, redshirting was much more common and he was the same age in relation to most of his opponents that Gable and other wrestlers from the 1970s were to theirs. The eras had some key differences that are worth considering.

 

To illustrate my original point, Imagine if young wrestler Pico won the worlds two yeas from now at the age of 21. Now imagine if Virgina Tech freshman Solomon Chishko did the same two years from now at the age of 21 while still having the primary focus of winning the ncaas. Would the feats be equivalent? In terms of age yes, but Chishko's feat would still be worth pointing out, even in relation to Pico, because he won under the conditions of training primarily folkstyle and still winning worlds, while Pico would be in about his 4th or 5th straight year training freestyle exclusively. 

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