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wrestlingnerd

Dake dec. Taylor 3-2 reffed correctly (big kudos to refs)

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I am neither a Cornell nor a PSU fan. I love watching both Dake and Taylor for different reasons, with a slight bias towards Dake because he is more unorthodox and creative. I had Dake winning this match in the prediction threads but only because I think he is the better wrestler and a particularly bad matchup for Taylor, not because of any allegiance to Dake or Cornell. (I also had Ruth nearly majoring Bosak, so I'm clearly not a Cornell fan at least by that prediction.)

 

That out of the way, I watched the match live and thought the reversal was called correctly but I also thought Taylor got out in the final two seconds. I thought the correct outcome would've been to send the match to OT by virtue of the escape point in the final second or two.

 

Then, I spent a lot of time watching the replay on Flowrestling and changed my mind. I now believe the match was called correctly. Moreover, these calls were extremely difficult ones and the refs deserve BIG kudos for making both calls correctly during such a high-profile match in the final seconds of the third period with all the incredible action and commotion of the moment.

 

Refs always get an insane amount of criticism when they blow calls but very rarely get their props when they nail them. Props to these refs!!

 

Here are some pictures as to why.

 

First, the reversal. As others have noted, there is such a thing as a standing reversal, which Dake got on Taylor with plenty of mat left before going out of bounds. The fact that they ended up out of bounds, whether by one foot or one mile, is immaterial. The reversal occurred well within bounds and the picture below proves that Dake unquestionably had control. He had the reverse headlock in place, had the merkle ride in, and had Taylor falling forward. If you look at this picture and tell me Dake didn't earn the two, I'll bring Kentucky Mudflap on here to call you a liar. It was two.

 

kd-reversal_zps59e9faa0.gif

 

This all happened very quickly, and it was excellent reffing by the refs to call the two as quickly as they did. Anyone complaining about a slow call is picking nits where there are none. The action happened very quickly, and any ref that would've literally made the call in bounds would've likely done it prematurely given the milliseconds that transpired between the action in and out of bounds and the reaction time required of any human to witness and then make the call.

 

Now on to the non-escape.

 

Here are five pictures of the sequence, which started when Taylor rolled forward to try to break Dake's lock around his waist (the first picture below), continued as he landed on his ass and started to scramble for the escape (second and third pictures), and finally ended when he was unable to secure the escape before Dake re-locked his hands (fourth and fifth pictures).

 

dt-roll_zpsa9afc105.gif

 

dt-landing_zpsd88f5d0d.gif

 

dt-landing2_zpsff88c0d3.gif

 

 

dt-landing3_zps48c778cd.gif

 

dt-noescape2_zpsbec1c8ab.gif

 

There are a couple of important nuances to look for.

 

First, look at the time on the clock in these pictures. Less than one second transpired between the time that Taylor landed and the time that it took Dake to relock his hands around the leg to maintain control. There is no way Taylor could've secured enough control in the milliseconds that transpired between his recovery from the roll and the time it took Dake to secure control again by locking around Taylor's near leg.

 

Second, look at the ref's eyes and hands in the final two pictures. He is clearly fixated on the locked hands around the leg with literally the best possible view in the house. He was in perfect position to make the call and he did not make it because there was no escape.

 

This was one of the most anticipated and exciting matches of 2013, and the refs deserve a ton of credit for giving us fans the correct outcome and not folding under pressure.

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Impressive analysis, wrestlingnerd.

 

I watched the match on Flo, and was left with the impression that Dake got the benefit of two very close calls, but wasn't prepared to conclude Taylor got screwed. It all simply happened very quickly, and neither the reversal or the escape non call struck me as a flagrant miscall. I mean, I've seen worse.

 

I know a lot of the PSU faithful are howling about these calls. And Dake certainly could've had one or either call go the other way. It's pretty clear these two guys are very evenly matched in folkstyle, and I wouldn't be surprised if Taylor wins at some point.

 

So, two close calls benefitting Dake, yes.... but no cheating or flagrant miscall. Give Dake his due. He won yet again.

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WOW...

What a match..!!

Just the way it should be.. Exciting.

 

There IS such a thing as a Standing revedersal...

Dake does NOT have a Merkle...

 

(Merkle is near leg in... NEAR arm and HEAD.... NOT FAR SIDE...)

 

That being said... :

Dake DOES have control UNDER BOTH ARMS.... Thus Contol.

 

So BIG credit to the guys in stripes... he got it right.

Interesting though... he's on the back side of the call... not sure that he could have seen that Dake is under both arms from that vantage point...

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For the non-escape call at the end, it is worth noting that the time on the mat and the time on the video were not always in sync (something I noticed while watching other matches), especially at the end of periods. I think the call in this case was correct, but I would not call this photo evidence conclusive for that reason.

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I guess I don't know the rules very well, but if I standing switch someone & get behind them without returning them to the mat and they then escape (while standing), it is scored 2-1. If so, that seems kind of dumb. We should then score duckunders, without a return, as a TD. To me, folkstyle wrestling is about control, and I don't see how reversal shown above demonstrates control. I also believe that HS is scored differently, but I may be wrong on that.

 

Either way, it is what it is. I am friends with the ref, so I certainly don't want him to get a bad rap if is it unwarranted. I do think Taylor should have cut Dake at that point, since he had accumulated a good amount of RT. That would force Dake to have to take him down, which works to Taylor's advantage. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

Great match & great for the sport.

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Tightwaist--correct, rules are different for a takedown and a reversal. As you mentioned on a takedown, must be brought to the mat in control. A reversal can happen as you described(standing switch--man is in control standing--it is two).

I am not sure why this is!! But it is the rule. The still photo above looks to me like a reversal.

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Tightwaist--correct, rules are different for a takedown and a reversal. As you mentioned on a takedown, must be brought to the mat in control. A reversal can happen as you described(standing switch--man is in control standing--it is two).

I am not sure why this is!! But it is the rule. The still photo above looks to me like a reversal.

 

 

I've been watching wrestling since the late 60s and it's always been like that both HS and college. Reason for the reversal rule is simple. Imagine doing it and not calling 2. What is it? If 0? Go out of bounds there- back to the bottom? If 1? Then he takes him to the mat and and gets 2 more? Would be a disaster.

The better argument/question might be to ask why isn't a takedown scored like that? I guess because it wouldn't be a takeDOWN anymore.

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NCAA Rule 2.8. A reversal occurs when the defensive wrestler comes from the bottom/defensive position and gains control of the opponent, either on the mat or in a rear-standing position.

 

Anyone complaining about a slow call is picking nits where there are none. The action happened very quickly, and any ref that would've literally made the call in bounds would've likely done it prematurely given the milliseconds that transpired between the action in and out of bounds and the reaction time required of any human to witness and then make the call.

 

This is a good point and I can tell you from experience that some officials are a tad slow to signal a standing reversal. Not because they don't know what they are doing, but it isn't something you see everyday, especially as you get higher up in the levels. I've had them occur before and I knew what happened but I was slow to signal simply because it took me a little longer for what I saw to translate into a signal; because it is something you just don't see on a daily basis. I'm half way through my season now and have yet to call a standing reversal.

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No ... not at all, which is probably why people still insist its a bad call -- they don't know the rules, but that's one that hasn't been tweaked in a long, long time.

 

 

I sent this from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

 

I'll admit, I did not understand that rule. I was under the impression that for a potential reversal when the guys are standing, you needed the same type of control as for a takedown. Aside from that, from my view, Dake wasn't even behind Taylor when they went out, but those photos possibly show otherwise; did Dake get his feet in bounds before they rolled out? Does he have to?

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Tightwaist--correct, rules are different for a takedown and a reversal. As you mentioned on a takedown, must be brought to the mat in control. A reversal can happen as you described(standing switch--man is in control standing--it is two).

I am not sure why this is!! But it is the rule. The still photo above looks to me like a reversal.

 

 

I've been watching wrestling since the late 60s and it's always been like that both HS and college. Reason for the reversal rule is simple. Imagine doing it and not calling 2. What is it? If 0? Go out of bounds there- back to the bottom? If 1? Then he takes him to the mat and and gets 2 more? Would be a disaster.

The better argument/question might be to ask why isn't a takedown scored like that? I guess because it wouldn't be a takeDOWN anymore.

 

I think it should be scored as an escape. You have escaped the top man's control, but you have yet to demonstrate control yourself. If you bring the man to the mat, then it is scored as a reversal for an additional point (not 2).

 

I really don't care about who won, just want to understand our (sometimes nebulous) scoring system. It sounds like JR scored it correctly last night!

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Tightwaist--correct, rules are different for a takedown and a reversal. As you mentioned on a takedown, must be brought to the mat in control. A reversal can happen as you described(standing switch--man is in control standing--it is two).

I am not sure why this is!! But it is the rule. The still photo above looks to me like a reversal.

 

 

I've been watching wrestling since the late 60s and it's always been like that both HS and college. Reason for the reversal rule is simple. Imagine doing it and not calling 2. What is it? If 0? Go out of bounds there- back to the bottom? If 1? Then he takes him to the mat and and gets 2 more? Would be a disaster.

The better argument/question might be to ask why isn't a takedown scored like that? I guess because it wouldn't be a takeDOWN anymore.

 

I think it should be scored as an escape. You have escaped the top man's control, but you have yet to demonstrate control yourself. If you bring the man to the mat, then it is scored as a reversal for an additional point (not 2).

 

I really don't care about who won, just want to understand our (sometimes nebulous) scoring system. It sounds like JR scored it correctly last night!

 

 

If 1, then Taylor 'reversed again', 1 for Taylor? If DT brought him down would it be 2? If they stayed standing 1-1 would almost make sense but would it be right (wishes during sig bets notwithstanding) for DT to gain from the scenario?

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In this scenario, at the speed which these guys compete...I think the safe response to this is an escape and put them on their feet. According to the rules, the ref scored it correctly. However, until we have video confirmation that clearly shows control established, the only thing we all saw was that Dake had escaped control by Taylor. He didn't gain control.

 

Again, I don't care. Just trying to think through worst case scenario's come March. These are issues for the refs to figure out in the off-season. I do think we need to consider video replay on select scoring situations. These guys move so fast now that it is hard to make a snap decision that might cost a kid a title.

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No ... not at all, which is probably why people still insist its a bad call -- they don't know the rules, but that's one that hasn't been tweaked in a long, long time.

 

 

I sent this from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

 

I'll admit, I did not understand that rule. I was under the impression that for a potential reversal when the guys are standing, you needed the same type of control as for a takedown. Aside from that, from my view, Dake wasn't even behind Taylor when they went out, but those photos possibly show otherwise; did Dake get his feet in bounds before they rolled out? Does he have to?

 

First you post multiple threads about the rip off and now you are asking questions about the rules??

 

The refs did a pretty good job if you ask me.

I actually think Taylor should've been dinged for stalling on top throwing in boots as Dake is going to his feet, especially after the 1:00 RT mark where most college officials start really critiqueing whether the top man is riding or riding to turn the guy.

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taylordake.jpg

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

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I do think we need to consider video replay on select scoring situations.

 

The ability for an official to review any call he wants or a coach to challenge calls (three per tournament or one per dual) exists.

 

However, if the host school of the tournament or dual doesn't provide that ability, then you get what you get. My understanding is UTC did not provide the review capability for the Scuffle.

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on a lighter note ... I just saw a post by Bubba Jenkins, who was watching the Scuffle:

"Damn watching all the other matches just seems boring after watching #taylorgang get #dake-raped lmao!!too funny"

You can't say Bubba doesn't have a good sense of humor.:lol:

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No ... not at all, which is probably why people still insist its a bad call -- they don't know the rules, but that's one that hasn't been tweaked in a long, long time.

 

 

I sent this from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

 

I'll admit, I did not understand that rule. I was under the impression that for a potential reversal when the guys are standing, you needed the same type of control as for a takedown. Aside from that, from my view, Dake wasn't even behind Taylor when they went out, but those photos possibly show otherwise; did Dake get his feet in bounds before they rolled out? Does he have to?

 

First you post multiple threads about the rip off and now you are asking questions about the rules??

 

The refs did a pretty good job if you ask me.

I actually think Taylor should've been dinged for stalling on top throwing in boots as Dake is going to his feet, especially after the 1:00 RT mark where most college officials start really critiqueing whether the top man is riding or riding to turn the guy.

 

WRONG, get you facts straight. I did not start any threads about it. Man you are friggin stupid.

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