Dake dec. Taylor 3-2 reffed correctly (big kudos to refs)

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

In that pic, I'd say they're in bounds. Taylor's right foot is off the mat, but it's still in the "cylinder." Now, whether Dake had gained control beyond reaction at this particular point in time is another question.

[wrestlingnerd 3,000]

For the non-escape call at the end, it is worth noting that the time on the mat and the time on the video were not always in sync (something I noticed while watching other matches), especially at the end of periods. I think the call in this case was correct, but I would not call this photo evidence conclusive for that reason.

 

 

Well, you can then look at the towel boy. The clocks were not that off in this sequence. The towel boy is clearly behind the ref but is gone when the clock shows 0:00 because he had already whacked the ref to end the match.

 

But anyway, that is not a critical point. You missed my point. I only mentioned the clock as a frame of reference for the images so that people can realize how little time (less than one second) it took Dake to maintain control by locking around the leg.

[wrestlingnerd 3,000]

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

In that pic, I'd say they're in bounds. Taylor's right foot is off the mat, but it's still in the "cylinder." Now, whether Dake had gained control beyond reaction at this particular point in time is another question.

 

 

Not only is it in bounds, but it doesn't matter because the points were scored already in this frame, which came after the frame I posted originally. And if getting your arms behind the guy previously on top and throwing in a leg ride for good measure is not getting control, I don't know what is. The fact that the reversal happened very quickly does not take away from the fact that it happened.

 

Moreover, the fact that the ref signaled two at this very point does not really matter. He could've scored the two many seconds later (as some very good refs sometimes do during complicated sequences so as to make sure they're not overlooking anything) and it still would've been two.

[DuckFor2 216]

how many posters would have completely differerent opinions of this chain of events if they would have in fact KNOWN THE RULES?? too funny.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

You could not really see Dake behind Taylor from the view on Flo so knowledge of the rule may not have helped.

 

btw, What's even funnier are all the experts on the rule that were no where to be found yesterday.

[headshuck 2,588]

You could not really see Dake behind Taylor from the view on Flo so knowledge of the rule may not have helped.

 

btw, What's even funnier are all the experts on the rule that were no where to be found yesterday.

 

 

I'm no expert, but I suppose many of them were driving/flying home?

[LordNelson 552]

WRONG, get you facts straight. I did not start any threads about it. Man you are friggin stupid.

 

It's true, I am stupid.

I apologize and get it totally wrong.

[LordNelson 552]

You could not really see Dake behind Taylor from the view on Flo so knowledge of the rule may not have helped.

 

btw, What's even funnier are all the experts on the rule that were no where to be found yesterday.

Actually,

Not to give creedence to Hammerlock3 but he did make the point last night in an insulting manner something like "stupid PSU fans don't know what a standing reversal is"

I would've gladly commented but hadn't seen the match until this a.m.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

You could not really see Dake behind Taylor from the view on Flo so knowledge of the rule may not have helped.

 

btw, What's even funnier are all the experts on the rule that were no where to be found yesterday.

 

 

Maybe they knew that the calls were correct and realized it is futile to argue with the Happy Valley Kool aid drinkers who don't know the rules

[scribe 1,824]

Kingkong and Hammerlock were right on top of the call without the benefit of replay, just as soon as it happened.

 

Good stuff.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

You may be right Shuck. I made sure I didn't go overboard because I really wasn't sure what happened or the exact rules in play. Dake is a great wrestler and now that things have settled down, I don't want to diminish his win.

[LordNelson 552]

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

 

Again,

For the standing reversal, you don't have to meet the same criteria as you do for a TD scored from the nuetral position.

 

If you end up behind the man on the feet, you do not have to return him to get a reversal. It actually happens alot in HS. Too much if you ask me.

 

Dake had the inside leg in (merkel or whatever) and was under the near arm (claw)=2 points.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

Flying tiger and rodneyee have as many victories on this board as Molinaro and Taylor have against Dake

[BaldwinKnowBest 19]

You could not really see Dake behind Taylor from the view on Flo so knowledge of the rule may not have helped.

 

btw, What's even funnier are all the experts on the rule that were no where to be found yesterday.

 

I posted about it on Facebook on Flo's page yesterday. I also commented on these boards but I guess it takes a while for these post to appear due to admin approval. As I was watching it live, I thought it was a great call and didn't understand why everyone was booing. Then I realized I sitting among the PSU fans...anyway great analysis "wrestlingnerd"

[BigApple 86]

I've been in wrestling since 1960. The standing reversal has always been the same criteria. The takedown criteria has changed though. I've seen a wrestler I was coaching in the Oklahoma State Championships get hit with a slide by, and one for no more than two seconds touched the mat, the other wrestler is awarded a takedown. He had less control than Dake did of Taylor in the standing reversal.

 

I know certain moves are called different names in different parts of the country. Can someone please tell me the history of the nearside headlock and inside flanker being called a Merkle? To me it is a head cradle, here's why and the history behind it.

 

Duwane Miller 1961 NCAA champ at 123 and Stan Abel 1959-1960 NCAA champ at 130 for OU were also teammates at Putnam City HS in OKC. After both completed college they became high school wrestling coaches in Oklahoma. Stan at Putnam City, and Duwane at Midwest City when they wrestled a dual meet. Duwane later became the head coach at Kapaun Mt.Carmel Catholic in Wichita, KS which became the powerhouse program in that state from 1975 to 1988 when he retired. Duwane used to teach his "head cradle" to the kids, along with other "trick" moves he had. I was a volunteer assistant at KMC after leaving OU and going into the business world. Duwane said he noticed that Stan had all of the Putnam City kids when they were on bottom step over the near leg of the top wrestler. Duwane said he back into the wrestling room and began seeing what he could work from that position. The head cradle was what he came up with. Later that season Midwest City shut out Putnam City in a dual meet with each MWC kid working the move on his Putnam City opponent.

 

17 years after Duwane told me this story, Stan was in Phoenix to be a clinician at the NWCA annual convention. We were out having a few drinks when Duwane Miller's name came up. Stan said do you know he shut me out in a dual meet once. I said yes, and I've known for 17 years, I was just waiting to see how long it would take for you to admit. He said Duwane Miller was the most cunning individual he'd ever known in his life.

 

When I was living in AZ I was showing the head cradle and Jim Santoro (Pat's uncle) said that is the McGuire. I told him it should be the Miller, because Duwane wrestled several years before David McGuire did at OU. I'd bet that McGuire learned it watching one of Miller's teams work that move.

[TheJudge 0]

wrestlingnerd: Thanks for the detailed analysis and post.

 

In your post regarding the non-escape, you indicate that "there is no way Taylor could've secured enough control [to earn the escape] in the [span of] milliseconds". Yet, regarding the reversal, you acknowledge that the action happened in a span of "milliseconds" and that a ref could not possibly have called it earlier.

 

What is the amount of time required to change control for an escape? What is the amount of time required to change control for a reversal?

 

Why are "milliseconds" sufficient to change control for Dake's reversal, but not for Taylor's escape?

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

In that pic, I'd say they're in bounds. Taylor's right foot is off the mat, but it's still in the "cylinder." Now, whether Dake had gained control beyond reaction at this particular point in time is another question.

Not only is it in bounds, but it doesn't matter because the points were scored already in this frame, which came after the frame I posted originally. And if getting your arms behind the guy previously on top and throwing in a leg ride for good measure is not getting control, I don't know what is. The fact that the reversal happened very quickly does not take away from the fact that it happened.

Yes, but is getting control for an instance the same as establishing control beyond reaction time? In your original analysis (nice job, btw), you said that it it all occurred in a matter of milliseconds. Likewise, with the non-escape, you said there was "no way Taylor could've secured enough control in the milliseconds that transpired between the recovery from the roll and the time it took Dake to secure control again by locking around Taylor's near leg." (BTW, since you don't have to secure control for an escape, I'm assuming you just meant that Taylor didn't remain in a neutral position beyond reaction time.)

 

So, as I understand your analysis, both the reversal and the non-escape occurred in a matter of milliseconds. Thus, one could argue that when Taylor was in control, he didn't receive the benefit of reaction time. But, when Dake was in control, he did receive that benefit. (And, maybe when the defensive guy gains control for a few milliseconds before going out of bounds, the offensive man is not allowed reaction time because the action is stopped. However, I haven't seen that situation clarified anywhere.)

 

In the end, your analysis may be spot-on, but I'm not convinced either way yet. Right now, I'd agree with rossel3 that there were two close calls that ended up benefiting Dake. And, while it's interesting to analyse those calls, the match is over and Dake won. I'd also agree with rossel3 that they're pretty evenly matched in folkstyle. So, Dake looks like a shoe-in for a fourth title, with only one guy skilled enough to give him a real challenge. (BTW, I like both guys and, while I root for Taylor as a PSU fan, they both add a lot of excitement to college wrestling. I don't think either guy deserves to be denigrated by fans of one or the other.)

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

You could not really see Dake behind Taylor from the view on Flo so knowledge of the rule may not have helped.

 

btw, What's even funnier are all the experts on the rule that were no where to be found yesterday.

 

I posted about it on Facebook on Flo's page yesterday. I also commented on these boards but I guess it takes a while for these post to appear due to admin approval. As I was watching it live, I thought it was a great call and didn't understand why everyone was booing. Then I realized I sitting among the PSU fans...anyway great analysis "wrestlingnerd"

I was sitting among the Oklahoma State fans and they had varying opinions about both calls. And they were rooting against PSU guys due to the team race (don't blame them a bit). Very knowledge and super nice folks - I sure hope they return to the Scuffle next year. Plus, John Smith came up to our section, thanked the fans, and chatted for a few minutes. Meeting him was the highlight of the Scuffle for me!

[tbert 563]

Good analysis... take a still shot of the full nelson @ 10:24

[wreferee 8]

Yes! Well-deserved kudos to the officials for this match. And a standing ovation to wrestlingnerd for his unbiased attentions to all of the details re: two very difficult calls in a relatively high profile match involving two of the most technically proficient wrestlers currently active. The collection of competencies displayed not only by the refs, combatants and coaches during this match but also by the participants on this thread further strengthens the position that wrestling is arguably the most honorable form of athletic competition. The next Dake/Taylor meeting's gonna be sumpin'!!!

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

In that pic, I'd say they're in bounds. Taylor's right foot is off the mat, but it's still in the "cylinder." Now, whether Dake had gained control beyond reaction at this particular point in time is another question.

Not only is it in bounds, but it doesn't matter because the points were scored already in this frame, which came after the frame I posted originally. And if getting your arms behind the guy previously on top and throwing in a leg ride for good measure is not getting control, I don't know what is. The fact that the reversal happened very quickly does not take away from the fact that it happened.

Yes, but is getting control for an instance the same as establishing control beyond reaction time? In your original analysis (nice job, btw), you said that it it all occurred in a matter of milliseconds. Likewise, with the non-escape, you said there was "no way Taylor could've secured enough control in the milliseconds that transpired between the recovery from the roll and the time it took Dake to secure control again by locking around Taylor's near leg." (BTW, since you don't have to secure control for an escape, I'm assuming you just meant that Taylor didn't remain in a neutral position beyond reaction time.)

 

So, as I understand your analysis, both the reversal and the non-escape occurred in a matter of milliseconds. Thus, one could argue that when Taylor was in control, he didn't receive the benefit of reaction time. But, when Dake was in control, he did receive that benefit. (And, maybe when the defensive guy gains control for a few milliseconds before going out of bounds, the offensive man is not allowed reaction time because the action is stopped. However, I haven't seen that situation clarified anywhere.)

 

In the end, your analysis may be spot-on, but I'm not convinced either way yet. Right now, I'd agree with rossel3 that there were two close calls that ended up benefiting Dake. And, while it's interesting to analyse those calls, the match is over and Dake won. I'd also agree with rossel3 that they're pretty evenly matched in folkstyle. So, Dake looks like a shoe-in for a fourth title, with only one guy skilled enough to give him a real challenge. (BTW, I like both guys and, while I root for Taylor as a PSU fan, they both add a lot of excitement to college wrestling. I don't think either guy deserves to be denigrated by fans of one or the other.)

I agree.

 

To someone sitting in front of a computer screen a couple of thousand miles away it didn't look like neither wrestler had a controlling point (hand or foot) in bounds.

 

But the guy in the gray shirt has that call, not me.

 

Despite my thoughts, nice wrestling by Dake to initiate the action on it.

[brianj 4]

Can't see anything really from this angle.

 

Good analysis... take a still shot of the full nelson @ 10:24

 

 

[Alyosha 48]

 

Hopefully my image posts. This screen shot shows the ref signaling two and it doesn't look like in bounds or control by Dake to me.

 

Anyway, it was a great and exciting match. My heart was pounding. I wish more non-wrestling fans could see matches like this and get the edge of your seat entertainment value that this match provided.

 

 

Dake clearly had control in bounds if you look at the three frames before this:

 

 

 

 

 

So Dake was behind him with the headlock for 1-2 seconds before Taylor Granbyed out of bounds. (By the way, have you ever heard of someone having to Granby when they were in control?)

 

As for the non-escape at the end, you can't tell from Flo's camera angle. If Dake's hands were locked, I say no escape. If he just had one arm around the leg, then I say give Taylor 1.

[tech_fall 3]

I still say no reversal!

[AKHUNTER 316]

^ and you are still.....wrong