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Taylor mistake?

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Watching the Taylor/Dake match again... Why on earth doesn't Taylor concede the first takedown, belly out and wait for a restart?  

I think he lets Dake get in his head a bit.  Everyone has a nemesis that once they beat you a few times, they become even harder to beat.  Which forces a sense of desperation. He got undisciplined there.  Dake is good in the crotch lift position, as his lifting strength is pretty darn good.  Taylor needs to work on takedowns and holds that mitigate the chance to get into that position against Kyle.  

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Dake literally coasted for 5 minutes and thirty seconds in that match.  And kept it even.   I can't see Taylor beating him.  Can he make 97?

 

I think you're on to something...   https://www.changingworld.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x800/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/A/-/A-C8587_4_2_1.jpg

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for sure taylor looked better the entire tourney, but, a couple of more months for dake to get used to carrying the extra weight and he will not gas as bad as he did this weekend... that will not help taylor's chances come april 

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They should conceivably be able to get in top shape at the higher weight also--but it takes time to develop the performance capacity for using the extra muscle at high volume over extended periods of time.  Even without the back issue Taylor could barely breathe or stand after one minute of action in Russia, so he's clearly headed in the right direction already.

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I think Dake will adjust to the needed conditioning.  Taylor's conditioning was horrendous in his first foray at this weight in Russia.  He already looked way better.  I'm sure Dake can make the same steps.

 

I am going to say this again and again and more clearly each time. Dake is going to take a year at 86kg and compete up there and then come back to 74kg after Rio and look to challenge Burroughs. The strategy is simple and sound. If you can't beat him, take a break, do something else and come back with a fresh perspective. I'm telling you, this is exactly what Dave Schultz did, deliberately, in 1982. He lost to Kemp many, many times prior to that. Kemp was the man. At that time he had won worlds 2x, missed out on the 1980 Olympics and taken a bronze in 1981. Schultz was not expected to beat him and didn't try again. Instead he took a bronze one weight up. Kemp won his third world title and fourth medal at 74kg. The next year, 1983, Schultz moved back to 74kg while Kemp took the year off. Schultz struck gold. The next year, 1984, Kemp and Schultz squared off for the Olympic berth. This time Schultz won the spot and took the gold, defeating 1981 world champion Martin Knosp in the finals. 

 

Let's talk age. JB was born July 1988. By the time Rio roles around he will be 28. Two years hence he will be 30. Not old by any means, but not young either. Lee Kemp was born December 1956. When he tried out for the 1984 spot he was just shy of 28, JB's age. Dave Schultz was born June 1959 about 2 1/2 years Kemp's junior, Kyle Dake was born February 1991, about 2 1/2 years JB's junior. Schultz made his first world team up a weight in 1982 at age 23. If Dake makes the team this year he will be 25.

 

My point is that you shouldn't discount the possibility that Dake overtakes JB. JB is an athletic freak, a once in a generation wrestler, but so was Kemp. JB is on his way to being the most successful USA freestyler ever, but so was Kemp at the time. But Kemp got older and his priorities changed. There's no question that Kemp approached the end of his career with questions about his passion for the sport and his priorities shifting to his future off the mat. In one or two years when JB is 30 he will be a step slower and a touch less the athletic freak. Dake meanwhile will have had a a year or two wrestling up a weight and away from JB. 

 

Lastly anyone who thinks that this isn't on Dake's mind is missing the big picture. All the talk thus far has been about Dake and his big mistake, as if he permanently moved up a weight. I tend to doubt it. Rob Koll is no dope, nor is Dake. They are aware of the past and are aware of the potency of this strategy. 

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Bigtimefan. You are a big time fan. However, let's see how dake does. He might find he is rolling the bigger guys around more effectively. He'll wrestle his natural fit as quick as he might seek out a challenge like going after an older Burroughs. He'll have to resign his losses to jb as losing to a better wrestler with an incredible rest to fatigue advantage.

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IMO, Dake looked great at 86kg. i don't put too much stock in 'he looked gassed'. some wrestlers mask it, some don't. dake can go when he needs to go.

 

on a different note - i was incredibly impressed with his top work. his commitment to his guts are awesome. i was curious if he could turn bigger guys, but watch him commit to his gut. 

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Bigtimefan. You are a big time fan. However, let's see how dake does. He might find he is rolling the bigger guys around more effectively. He'll wrestle his natural fit as quick as he might seek out a challenge like going after an older Burroughs. He'll have to resign his losses to jb as losing to a better wrestler with an incredible rest to fatigue advantage.

That's a very fair point and thanks for the compliment (if in fact it was a compliment!). If there's one thing that's clear about Dake it's that he's a ferocious competitor and doesn't see himself as second to none. He strikes me as the kind of guy who will feel his career was not a success if he doesn't win a gold. I personally see his shot at winning at gold as 86kg as pretty much zero. I am not even sure he can get past Herbert or Ruth at the trials. Even though Taylor whomped Ruth, I won't count him out. If Dake makes the team he will either not medal or eventually run up against Sadulaev or Karimi at which point unless I am sorely underestimating Dake, he will learn he is truly capped at 86kg. At 74kg I think he is world Gold caliber but never mind what I think, I think he thinks he is. That's why I think he goes back down after a year or at most two and challenges the champ. 

 

However, as you say, we will just have to wait and see. It will be fun as a fan to watch this develop.

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Big time Fan that was a great analysis.  There is one big difference today that could lead to keeping JB competing at closer to his highest level.  Back in the early 80s wrestlers weren't allowed to make money off of their sport without losing their amateur status. This made it hard for guys in their early 20s who had completed college to keep competing.  Even being paid as a coach could get your amateur status revoked.  This slowly changed from the mid 80s to the mid 90s as the Olympics got away from the amateur requirement.

 

Today JB is essentially a professional athlete. If he wins @ worlds or Olympics he gets a nice amount from USAW and aside from that he has his Nebraska salary and probably significant income from endorsements.  Retiring won't improve his financial situation.  As long as he stays healthy I think he can go through 2020 as he has said.

 

That being said I think you are right that Dake could return to challenge him in the future.  I would certainly look forward to that match.

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Taylor's biggest mistake is going for the low single every freaking time and getting his head stuffed in the mat or creating a scramble situation.  Both situations favor Dake big time.  If he's going to beat Dake he's going to have to go to a different attack.

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Big time Fan that was a great analysis.  There is one big difference today that could lead to keeping JB competing at closer to his highest level.  Back in the early 80s wrestlers weren't allowed to make money off of their sport without losing their amateur status. This made it hard for guys in their early 20s who had completed college to keep competing.  Even being paid as a coach could get your amateur status revoked.  This slowly changed from the mid 80s to the mid 90s as the Olympics got away from the amateur requirement.

 

Today JB is essentially a professional athlete. If he wins @ worlds or Olympics he gets a nice amount from USAW and aside from that he has his Nebraska salary and probably significant income from endorsements.  Retiring won't improve his financial situation.  As long as he stays healthy I think he can go through 2020 as he has said.

 

That being said I think you are right that Dake could return to challenge him in the future.  I would certainly look forward to that match.

That is a huge difference indeed and great for USA wrestling. I hadn't thought of it. If JB can get enough breathing room to train while coaching he should be able to stick with it without worrying about his future. Compare that to Mark Schutlz who feels he was impoverished by wrestling and says that Chris Campbell was actually on welfare when he trained (Yes, Mark said that, and I have no idea the extent to which it's true). 

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One other reason why JB can last into his 30s is that he is competing much less frequently. The ability to watch his opponents bludgeon each other before they face him aside, he is just not as active now, almost on a boxing or MMA schedule. Making weight only a couple of times and wrestling a handful of matches a year can certainly extend longevity. The question is whether that limited competitive exposure allows more active guys to catch up.

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Personally I found that going up in weight wasn't about carrying the extra( there isn't any- a guy just isn't dehyrdrated), but more of an outcome of having to move around somebody bigger as far as getting gassed.

 

Its especially true wrestling a collegiate style match.

Exactly...I didn't explicitly say this, but the need to build capacity comes with the combination of both greater required output and a reshaped body learning some new muscle memory--especially in the case of these guys who are actively trying to build muscle, not just be less dehydrated.

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I am going to say this again and again and more clearly each time. Dake is going to take a year at 86kg and compete up there and then come back to 74kg after Rio and look to challenge Burroughs. The strategy is simple and sound. If you can't beat him, take a break, do something else and come back with a fresh perspective. I'm telling you, this is exactly what Dave Schultz did, deliberately, in 1982. He lost to Kemp many, many times prior to that. Kemp was the man. At that time he had won worlds 2x, missed out on the 1980 Olympics and taken a bronze in 1981. Schultz was not expected to beat him and didn't try again. Instead he took a bronze one weight up. Kemp won his third world title and fourth medal at 74kg. The next year, 1983, Schultz moved back to 74kg while Kemp took the year off. Schultz struck gold. The next year, 1984, Kemp and Schultz squared off for the Olympic berth. This time Schultz won the spot and took the gold, defeating 1981 world champion Martin Knosp in the finals. 

 

Let's talk age. JB was born July 1988. By the time Rio roles around he will be 28. Two years hence he will be 30. Not old by any means, but not young either. Lee Kemp was born December 1956. When he tried out for the 1984 spot he was just shy of 28, JB's age. Dave Schultz was born June 1959 about 2 1/2 years Kemp's junior, Kyle Dake was born February 1991, about 2 1/2 years JB's junior. Schultz made his first world team up a weight in 1982 at age 23. If Dake makes the team this year he will be 25.

 

My point is that you shouldn't discount the possibility that Dake overtakes JB. JB is an athletic freak, a once in a generation wrestler, but so was Kemp. JB is on his way to being the most successful USA freestyler ever, but so was Kemp at the time. But Kemp got older and his priorities changed. There's no question that Kemp approached the end of his career with questions about his passion for the sport and his priorities shifting to his future off the mat. In one or two years when JB is 30 he will be a step slower and a touch less the athletic freak. Dake meanwhile will have had a a year or two wrestling up a weight and away from JB. 

 

Lastly anyone who thinks that this isn't on Dake's mind is missing the big picture. All the talk thus far has been about Dake and his big mistake, as if he permanently moved up a weight. I tend to doubt it. Rob Koll is no dope, nor is Dake. They are aware of the past and are aware of the potency of this strategy. 

 

 

 

Interesting point of view.   But is Dake a Schultz type talent?  If he is, this makes perfect sense.   I"m not sure he is. 

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