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VakAttack

Oddness of the Dake-Taylor match up

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Both times in-season I've been struck by how strange it is, considering what we know about both guys. Dake seems in control in neutral and the one trying to create more scoring opportunities. Taylor has yet to penetrate off his own shot, though he did nearly counter a Dake shot in the first match for a TD. Meanwhile Dake has been in deep on a couple of occasions without converting either. Taylor, meanwhile, has been the more effective mat wrestler for the majority of their matches (outside of the rideouts in the first match), riding Dake for longer and reversing Dake's ride, while Dake has struggled both times to get any sort of lengthy ride on Taylor (again, until he absolutely had to).

 

Going into the matches, I think most presumed both guys would hold an advantage in the opposite area where they have actually held it. Is it just me?

 

I'm forced to wonder if Taylor is somewhat mentally beaten like he seemed to be against Jenkins. The way his match with Jenkins played out in neutral is startlingly similar to how they've played out with Dake (outside of the cradle/pin, obviously) with Taylor being noticeably hesitant compared to his normal movement-based style. I know Dake is changing some of that by forcing ties, but even when Taylor gets some space, and he has in both matches, he's not moving as much and trying to create angles.

 

Just some observations.

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Vak - I was thinking yesterday that it seemed Taylor had made a strategic decision to try to beat Dake at his own game - and very nearly succeeded. Likewise, the quick agressive shot by Dake seemed an attempt to steal away a bit of Taylor's thunder.

 

Not exactly to your point, but looking back just a bit - how lucky are we that Dake decided to go up another weight this season and give us this matchup? What a boost to the sport! 8-)

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It is strange, and I have noticed this as well. In all honesty though, the Taylor/Sanderson camp may know exactly what they are doing in this regard..

 

It is not at all outside the realm of possibility that Taylor was approaching the Scuffle match with a different mindset than we'd think, using it more as a stepping stone for March than a "throw everything I have to try to win" - i.e try to beat Dake on the mat, and reserve his arsenal on his feet for March? And like we all saw, shockingly enough, he damn near succeeded at just that.

 

On the flipside though, almost the same can be said for Dake...it took him all of about 1.7 seconds in match #2 (as opposed to the All-Star) to take a shot and almost finish. Truth be told, I think both are reserving a little something for March, and come that time it will all be hanging out there.

 

It is crystal clear that Dake is no slouch on his feet though, so this strategy could come back to haunt. If you lose that first td to Dake, you damn well better escape quickly and not get ridden out!

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Truth be told, I think both are reserving a little something for March, and come that time it will all be hanging out there.

 

Absolutely, I think both sides are looking strategically at the big picture here - which is what makes the whole storyline so great!

 

BTW, PA-Fan - I'm not understanding exactly the intent of your sig line - are you trying to say that Dake is the #1 technician? ;) :P

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Something seems to be telling me that come March, it's going to be different. They both aren't laying it all out there yet.

 

I must admit, as a huge DT and PSU fan, I can't help but to really appreciate Kyle Dake. A hammer on the mat and a very likable kid off with a sense of humor. I can't help but to root for him, until the very last match of his collegiate career (assuming they both get there).

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I agree with Taylor conceding a psychological advantage to Dake. Especially after the Olympic trials.

 

Bubba also beat DT at the ESU open during red-shirt years. From what I read/understand, Bubba also brought the hammer down on Taylor early on in the room. So, the psychological advantage was conceded to Bubba in the finals almost certainly.

 

From what I can see Taylor is wrestling with the same hesitancy as he did against Bubba. (Don't mean to take anything away from Dake, and I admit I am not the most experienced or knowledgeable fan, just a fan.)

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Truth be told, I think both are reserving a little something for March, and come that time it will all be hanging out there.

 

Absolutely, I think both sides are looking strategically at the big picture here - which is what makes the whole storyline so great!

 

BTW, PA-Fan - I'm not understanding exactly the intent of your sig line - are you trying to say that Dake is the #1 technician? ;) :P

 

Not quite...more like I lost the sig-bet and "technically" Dake is #1....although I am still betting on Taylor!! :lol:

 

Come to think of it, given what his Vegas odds will look like come March, I think he will actually be the best (by which I mean most-profitable) bet in the field!

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It seems Dake is hanging around, keeping it close, and trusting his superb ability to snatch a victory almost at will. Kellen Russell did this a lot too. However, this is not DT's game and he should want no part of it. Without taking unnecessary risks, Taylor needs to get after Dake for seven minutes and don't give him one inch. Don't look for the home run just assure the the next match is the worst seven minutes of Dake's life.

Cael is a great coach, but a little Iowa style might work like a stool softener on Dake. That means just fight like hell -- if all you got is a shoe lace, take it. Push him all over the mat. Ride him ugly. Then take it too him when his face turns red.

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I was surprised that Taylor was able to ride Dake so effectively. I don't know if that will hold true come March, but if Taylor could have gotten a 1st period takedown, he likely would have won the match at the Scuffle comfortably, because he would have held a 2-1 lead going into the 2nd period, and the extra riding time he would have obtained in the 1st period would have been insurmountable when added to the time he got riding in the 2nd. That would have been the difference in the match right there. But I believe the only real shot in the first period was Dake's. Taylor only had a few reaches for the ankle. And he let himself stay in that handfighting game caught in the Russian tie for most of the period. Whereas in the All Star match, Dake backed up and played the edge quite a bit, here he looked like he controlled Taylor much more from neutral without stalling, but still could not score himself. Maybe Taylor is leaving something for March, but I still have to believe that he should have tried to get a takedown, not only to win the match, but to prove to himself that he can take Dake down, because he's going to have to get a takedown to win (most likely). We now have 14+ minutes of wrestling between these two with zero takedowns.

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Both times in-season I've been struck by how strange it is, considering what we know about both guys. Dake seems in control in neutral and the one trying to create more scoring opportunities. Taylor has yet to penetrate off his own shot, though he did nearly counter a Dake shot in the first match for a TD. Meanwhile Dake has been in deep on a couple of occasions without converting either. Taylor, meanwhile, has been the more effective mat wrestler for the majority of their matches (outside of the rideouts in the first match), riding Dake for longer and reversing Dake's ride, while Dake has struggled both times to get any sort of lengthy ride on Taylor (again, until he absolutely had to).

 

Going into the matches, I think most presumed both guys would hold an advantage in the opposite area where they have actually held it. Is it just me?

 

I'm forced to wonder if Taylor is somewhat mentally beaten like he seemed to be against Jenkins. The way his match with Jenkins played out in neutral is startlingly similar to how they've played out with Dake (outside of the cradle/pin, obviously) with Taylor being noticeably hesitant compared to his normal movement-based style. I know Dake is changing some of that by forcing ties, but even when Taylor gets some space, and he has in both matches, he's not moving as much and trying to create angles.

 

Just some observations.

Good observation. I'd agree that there's been somewhat of a role reversal regarding fan's expectations of their match-ups. As far as Bubba J., however, I didn't see any evidence that Taylor was "mentally beaten." Remember, going in, Bubba was a former Jr. World Champ and NCAA runner-up who was tough on his feet (got 2 early TDs on Metcalf in their finals match). Plus, as former teammates, they knew each other's tendencies. Those factors may explain the 0-0 first period better than Taylor's perceived hesitancy.

 

In the second period, DT got out immediately, then got in on a fairly decent single leg. However, Bubba was able to grab one of DT's feet to counter and then hook up the inside cradle for the pinfall. Well done by Bubba! But up to then, DT was up 1-0 and seemingly pushing the action a little more. People may recall the dejected look on DT's face after the match and assume Bubba had a mental edge going in, but I'd disagree. (However, I'm sure he had an "oh sh!t, this ain't good" moment when Bubba rolled over his own back with the cradle locked up tight.)

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Vak - glad you posted this, was thinking similar thoughts.

 

Dake is considered a god on the mat.

 

Taylor is considered a god on his feet.

 

These matches are poking holes in these thoughts.

 

 

I'm with Vak and nom on this ....

 

I just get this weird, funny feeling, that (if it happens) the NCAA showdown is going to be a different style match then what we've seen so far.

 

PLUS: How many of these close rivalries have we seen, either in HS or College, where a couple of guys, have this intense close rivalry, and the guy that lost most of the time, came up with the WIN in the last and most important match? ie... Caldwell & Metcalf . (Me and a guy in HS)

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Completely agree Vak.

 

However, I find it hard to believe that either of these wrestlers are holding back. They are both winners with a winning mentality - and when wrestling against the very best competition, they are both giving it everything they've got to win, IMO.

 

And, it doesn't make sense that Taylor would wait until the NCAA finals to "start" throwing his offense at Dake. I think they both gave it everything they had, they both went for the win, and Dake came out on top in a very narrow victory. I still think Dake has the edge on their feet, but I think Taylor has the edge on the mat.

 

That said, the NCAA finals is a different story, with a different mentality and a lot more on the line - so we may see a different match because of the increased intensity. I also believe that Koll and Sanderson are working with each of their wrestler's "weaknesses", which may also result in a different match. No matter what, we are in for another exciting match!

 

I still believe Dake comes out with the win 9 out of 10 ten times. I just hope that aberration doesn't come in March.

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Vak, I would agree that Dake has forced his style more than Taylor has on their feet. However, minus the double at the beginning of yesterday's match, I'm not sure Dake has taken a meaningful shot against DT. In match 1, DT got in very deep on a re-shot (i suppose you could count a meaningful shot for KD) and got in deep again on his own initiated high crotch in OT. Yesterday Dake was in deep early but that was really it. He didn't even take a half shot. DT was going hard after those ankle picks much of the match but I think its calculated that he does not want to get in a high crotch type scramble. Only way he takes him down is with one of those ankle picks, which by the way, I'm shocked an impressed that Dake has managed to completely avoid. Both have scouted and are well coached and both made big adjustments from the first match. DT's offense revolves around that right hand collar tie. Every time he goes to it, Dake takes it off with a two on one and basically forces a stalemate. He will not let DT get his motion going. To win DT will have to adjust there. Dake was able to easily escape in match 1 with his tripod. This time DT threw his leg in when Dake did that and it worked well.

 

Both are insane scramblers. Don't think either was holding much back, it will just be another level up in March. Winning is everything to Dake and DT will have to do something big to take a match from him on the elevated stage.

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I don't think they're holding back. I think the better wrestler is winning barely. That doesn't mean the lesser of the two can't win one because he can. He might even win the one that counts. I think the match that counts will look similar to the last two. Maybe they are holding something back and it'll look closer to the first match which was, of course, a fall, but I doubt it. Somebody wins an edge of the seat, dramatic, heart stopper which ruins, or at least alters, someones legacy forever and I will be there.

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Both times in-season I've been struck by how strange it is, considering what we know about both guys. Dake seems in control in neutral and the one trying to create more scoring opportunities. Taylor has yet to penetrate off his own shot, though he did nearly counter a Dake shot in the first match for a TD. Meanwhile Dake has been in deep on a couple of occasions without converting either. Taylor, meanwhile, has been the more effective mat wrestler for the majority of their matches (outside of the rideouts in the first match), riding Dake for longer and reversing Dake's ride, while Dake has struggled both times to get any sort of lengthy ride on Taylor (again, until he absolutely had to).

 

Going into the matches, I think most presumed both guys would hold an advantage in the opposite area where they have actually held it. Is it just me?

 

I'm forced to wonder if Taylor is somewhat mentally beaten like he seemed to be against Jenkins. The way his match with Jenkins played out in neutral is startlingly similar to how they've played out with Dake (outside of the cradle/pin, obviously) with Taylor being noticeably hesitant compared to his normal movement-based style. I know Dake is changing some of that by forcing ties, but even when Taylor gets some space, and he has in both matches, he's not moving as much and trying to create angles.

 

Just some observations.

Good observation. I'd agree that there's been somewhat of a role reversal regarding fan's expectations of their match-ups. As far as Bubba J., however, I didn't see any evidence that Taylor was "mentally beaten." Remember, going in, Bubba was a former Jr. World Champ and NCAA runner-up who was tough on his feet (got 2 early TDs on Metcalf in their finals match). Plus, as former teammates, they knew each other's tendencies. Those factors may explain the 0-0 first period better than Taylor's perceived hesitancy.

 

In the second period, DT got out immediately, then got in on a fairly decent single leg. However, Bubba was able to grab one of DT's feet to counter and then hook up the inside cradle for the fall. Well done by Bubba! But up to then, DT was up 1-0 and seemingly pushing the action a little more. People may recall the dejected look on DT's face after the match and assume Bubba had a mental edge going in, but I'd disagree. (However, I'm sure he had an "oh sh!t, this ain't good" moment when Bubba rolled over his own back with the cradle locked up tight.)

 

----

 

Hard to know about these mental factors. Suzie attempted to understand Metcalf's psyche after his loss to Caldwell. She might have some thoughts on Taylor/Dake. If you know where she/he is, Hurricane, you could ask her/him.

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