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With all the talk about how Dake winning four titles four different weights makes him (at least) the 2nd greatest college wrestler ever.....if Taylor does win the big one and puts the block on 4444. Where does that leave them respectively on the G.O.A.T ladder?

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IF....IF....Taylor wins and finishes his career as a 3 time national champ plus 1 time runner up with only 3 losses. He has to be top 10.

 

 

I'd agree. Maybe top 5. This was only his 2nd official loss. What about Dake?

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If they each finish with 3 titles and one runner up finish then career wise they'd be tied, but anyone who saw the two compete, and was ranking by best on the mat, would have Dake quite a few spots ahead of Taylor. What I'm saying is both have a better career than Jordan Burroughs, but neither is better than Jordan Burroughs. Burroughs quite a bit better than Dake, and Dake several spots better than Taylor.

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Burroughs really wasn't considered a beast until his junior year, and even then people didn't realize how great he was until he beat Howe convincingly as a senior. Based on college accomplishments, if Dake and Taylor each end up as 3x champs, they could each be top 10-15 easily, although there will be great debate about who should be higher. Taylor probably will end up with the better record, and more falls and techs, but Dake will have the better head to head record, and so far has faced better competition than Taylor during his career, and didn't redshirt. So I would put Dake above Taylor, but it would be close, assuming of course Taylor beats him this year.

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If we are talking just collegiate career – Burroughs isn’t in the same category as Dake and Taylor and in my opinion. He did not place as a fresh, took 3rd as sophomore, then back to back championships with a hodge his senior year. Compare that to Dake who as a Fresh, Soph, and Junior won titles in 3 different weights and as a senior is pretty much inevitably going to be at least a finalist in a 4th weight class. Taylor as a Fresh destroyed everyone all season, got “caught” in the finals and finished as a runner up. As a sophomore had one of the more dominating seasons (though in a weak weight) in NCAA history and won the hodge. As a junior he has crushed everyone, including the 3rd ranked wrestler at the weight 10-0, except Dake in two (one official) VERY close matches. He most likely will be in the finals for the 3rd straight year and assuming he dominates next year after Dake leaves and finishes as the champ both Taylor and Dake’s careers are far better than Burroughs.

Now, internationally, we shall see…

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If it's close, you have to look at the redshirt. And remember, Taylor redshirted because he got smoked by Cyler in the wrestle-off, and Cyler wasn't an NCAA champion level wrestler. I don't see a case for Taylor being better than a 7th or something if he wrestled as a true frosh.

 

If Dake wins out, he is obviously top 3 and I think you could make a good argument for...well...I'm not going to make it yet. If Dake were to lose to Taylor in the finals AND Taylor winds up 2-1-1-1 then they both are going to be Top 10, Dake probably a spot or 2 higher. (A loss to Taylor is a "better" loss than getting pinned by Bubba.)

 

At this point, the finals match means more to Taylor's legacy than Dake's in a weird way. Barring something crazy (like losing to someone other than Taylor) Dake is going to go down as one of the 10 best NCAA wrestlers of all time. For Taylor, the difference between 2-1-2-1 and 2-1-1-1 is the difference between Top 10 and probably not in the Top 20.

 

For example, IF Taylor loses to Dake in the finals but wins out next year, could you put Taylor ahead of Askren? Mocco? It is close. If you are a 3x champ and 4x finalist, you are in small company. Once you get into the mix with the 2x champs, you are behind a lot of people and in the mix with a lot of others. (Let's be honest, if Taylor loses to Dake and Ruth wins out for his career...you can't put Taylor ahead of Ruth IMO.)

 

If Taylor doesn't lose again, he will be one of the 10 most accomplished college wrestlers ever. There are MORE than 20 guys who have won 3+ titles, I don't see how you can put Taylor in the Top 20 if he loses in the finals...even if it's to Dake.

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Burroughs really wasn't considered a beast until his junior year, and even then people didn't realize how great he was until he beat Howe convincingly as a senior. Based on college accomplishments, if Dake and Taylor each end up as 3x champs, they could each be top 10-15 easily, although there will be great debate about who should be higher. Taylor probably will end up with the better record, and more falls and techs, but Dake will have the better head to head record, and so far has faced better competition than Taylor during his career, and didn't redshirt. So I would put Dake above Taylor, but it would be close, assuming of course Taylor beats him this year.

That would be one that would be argued about forever. Dake fans would point out the freestyle, All-Star, and Scuffle wins and say Dake was 3-1 against Taylor. Taylor fans would point out that they only had two official NCAA matches, with Taylor winning the second, and far more important bout. And, it could be arguably of greater historical significance than Schultz preventing Banach from becoming the first 4x champ. (Ed lost in his junior year, whereas Dake would be losing in his final match, ala Owings over Gable). All hypothetical at this point, however - but fun to discuss.

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Agree that both have to be viewed as having better careers in college than Burroughs. Did Burroughs reach a higher level? Debatable. The talk that DT hasn't wrestled anyone can rest for now. The 10-0 win over Caldwell was beyond impressive. And IF DT wins in March and dominates through next year, you could make a strong case to put him above Dake. Depending on the nature of the win.

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Agree that both have to be viewed as having better careers in college than Burroughs. Did Burroughs reach a higher level? Debatable. The talk that DT hasn't wrestled anyone can rest for now. The 10-0 win over Caldwell was beyond impressive. And IF DT wins in March and dominates through next year, you could make a strong case to put him above Dake. Depending on the nature of the win.

If this happens, I think you could make a fair argument for Taylor being better at his "peak" (kind of the argument you would make for Burroughs) but if they were both 4x finalists, 3x champs I would have to give it to the guy that didn't redshirt. Especially if at best Taylor would wind up 1-2 against Dake head to head in folkstyle.

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Also agree that if Ruth wins out he's right there as well. How bout Mcdonough? Oliver? Stieber? I don't know that we've ever had studs like this in college at the same time.

McDonough is a tricky one, because I don't think he remotely faced the level of competition that Dake and Taylor did. But with that said, if he wins out and Taylor loses to Dake...it would be hard to argue Taylor over McD. Even if I think Oliver got screwed (which I do) I would probably have to give it to Taylor over Oliver since they both redshirted and Oliver has a 4th thrown in there. A little premature on Stieber.

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Agree that both have to be viewed as having better careers in college than Burroughs. Did Burroughs reach a higher level? Debatable. The talk that DT hasn't wrestled anyone can rest for now. The 10-0 win over Caldwell was beyond impressive. And IF DT wins in March and dominates through next year, you could make a strong case to put him above Dake. Depending on the nature of the win.

Good point. A lot could depend on whether Taylor's hypothetical win was more like Dake's Scuffle win (1-point margin w/ 2 close calls) or something more convincing. And, while head-to-head records usually carry great weight, I couldn't imagine Dake saying; "Sure Taylor beat me in the NCAA finals preventing me from becoming a 4x champ, but I'm better because I beat him earlier at both the All-Star & the Scuffle."

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Oc-you don't think mcd has faced the level of competition Taylor has!!?? Jesus Christ then your opinion of mcds strength of schedule for his career has to be dog s**t. I disagree but I'll spend all night making sure I'm right. I'll get back to you on this.

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This is a very BIG if...but, IF David Taylor beats Kyle Dake in championship bout, and David Taylor goes undefeated next year; they both end up with 3 national titles and a loss in the finals...

 

If this was the case, David Taylor would have a better career than Kyle Dake. Officially, they would be 1-1 against each other in college. Taylor would end up with two losses in college; to Bubba Jenkins and Kyle Dake, both national champions. Dake would have 5 losses in college; to David Taylor, and Reece Humphrey, both national champions. But Dake would also have losses to Donnie Vinson, Kevin LeValley and Zack Bailey. On that basis, any objective person would conclude that Taylor had a better career.

 

Lots of hurdles for David Taylor, and it looks like only one left for Kyle Dake.

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This all comes down to redshirt or no redshirt. Dake has done this as a true freshman without a redshirt year. That puts him ahead of almost everybody. I am not a Dake fan but I do respect him. Being a Howe fan i don't think his mat skills are anywhere near Dake or Taylor. Where does a healthy Howe at 165 this year end up?

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Also agree that if Ruth wins out he's right there as well. How bout Mcdonough? Oliver? Stieber? I don't know that we've ever had studs like this in college at the same time.

 

 

In my mind, for McD to get drawn into the discussion of Dake's level, he would have had to go up to 33s to meet Stieber. As for Oliver and Stieber, we still have to see what happens, though they are on a mission (especially Oliver). It's a good time for NCAA wrestling fans!

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I'm in the "no rs" camp. I think that puts Kyle in very rare territory, especially for a career middle wgt who has appeared in 4 wgt classes. I don't think any other big time wrestling celeb has this credential and a RS year does make a huge diff.If he wins the NCAAs and i expect he may, he will be top of list of 3 with Cael and Pat Smith. Fairness dictates that all should be aware that prior to 1972 you could not be a 4Xer due to lack of FR eligibility rules. I'm guessing Gable, Uetake and Hodge would have reached the goal. It may also be instructive to young whippersnappers that both Danny 46-0 and Yojiro 58-0 did not need to contend with the grueling schedue modern wrestlers must. I also think John Smith's record superior to all of them. a 2X champ 1, 2nd in NCAAs and one zilch with a 154-7-2 record plus his world style record from 1987-92 includes: 2 Oly Champs 4 World Champs and 2 Pan Ams all at 62 kg is remarkable. I don't wish to start a battle and I certainly am not denigrating any of the others mention who are all great stars in the wrestling firmament. Danny Hodge is my favorite because at the ripe old age of 80 he can still crush an apple in his huge hands. He is great with the public and a delightful public persona. Once in Tulsa I saw him take 8 pages from a broadsheet newspaper and ball it up with one hand. Give this a try using 2 or 3 sheets and 4 if you are feelimg particularly strong. It takes considerable dexterity and strength. I'm guessing only a few of you can accomplish this.

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READ ALL ABOUT IT !!! read all about it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You guys cant figure out that the DOMINANCE in the past 15 years- means that the Sport has changed...and quite possibly, that the BEST Today arent as good - or invincible as you make them ESPECIALLY if, wrestling 10-30 yrs ago ???

 

Are WE sure Dake is/was better than a Metcalf at 149....didnt Metcalf lose to Caldwell ?? How would Larkin or Jantzen do against these guys ?? Didnt Scwabb win the SR FS's..5 yrs ago ?? How does Burroughs equate to Taylor ?? So, I am to believe that the TOP wrestlers ...ever....are and have been wrestling in the past four or so years....THIS IS TOOOOOOOO FUNNY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

YOU GUYS SEEM TO HAVE A MEMORY SPAN OF 10 YRS OR LESS .....SORRY, THIS SPORT HAS HAD SOME REALLY "GREATER" WRESTLERS IN YEARS GONE BYE...MANY WHO HAD LESSER WINS BECAUSE THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION WAS RIDICULOUS. MOST WHO DIDNT HAVE MULTIPLE X TITLES.

 

WIN RECORDS- MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS- Can not be determined and weighed by a small pool of victims who might not have been starters 10 yrs ago..lol......While I am a BIG Dake fan.....the pool of wrestlers he has beaten in his four years PALES in comparison to many former weight classes and wrestlers who won less championships . BTW- IMO- both Jenkins and Caldwell would have had adequate shots at beating Dake.....especially, Bubba.

 

What is quite NOTICABLE- Is that MOST of our better DI Wrestlers are not Tops in the World in the past 20 yrs- So, while we raise their PRAISE- the results Internationally have fallen....hmmmmm??????

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With all the talk about how Dake winning four titles four different weights makes him (at least) the 2nd greatest college wrestler ever.....if Taylor does win the big one and puts the block on 4444. Where does that leave them respectively on the G.O.A.T ladder?

 

 

If Taylor wins the big one he will end up clearly ahead of Dake. Just consider the arguments for and against this. If Taylor wins in March then here are their final records.

 

 

Kyle Dake will end up at about 130-5. The loss to Taylor will be his 5th loss. The loss will have occurred in the single most important match of his career against a guy a significant portion of the wrestling world already thinks beat him earlier in the year at The Southern Scuffle.

 

David Taylor will (presuming he never loses again - a safe bet, I contend) end up at about 133-2. That is 3 fewer losses than Dake. He will also own the win against Dake in the biggest match of them all.

 

Taylor will also have something Dake will never have. Taylor pins and tech falls guys at will. He did this even while going thru last year's NCAA Tourney. The only wrestlers (aside from Dake himself, obviously) that don't get pinned or TF'd are the guys that stall or otherwise don't really compete. This is what makes Taylor so compelling. The sheer number of points he scores for his team are insane.

 

So to answer your question, if Taylor wins that match in March, I believe he will have to be placed higher up the list than Dake.

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McDonough is a tricky one, because I don't think he remotely faced the level of competition that Dake and Taylor did.

 

 

That is absurd. From what I can see, here are the All-Americans that McDonough has beaten throughout his career...

 

Andrew Long 4x

Ryan Mango 3x

Ben Kjar 2x

Zach Sanders 7x

Cashe Quiroga 2x

Nikko Triggas

Brandon Precin 3x

Jarrod Patterson

Nico Megaludis 2x

Jesse Delgado 2x

Nic Bedelyon

Steve Bonnano

 

That's 30 wins against All-Americans. He also has a host of other quality wins over guys like Garnett (who just won Midlands), Morrison (who just won the Scuffle), Zanetta, Sprenkle etc...

 

And let's not forget that the NCAA tournament he won as a freshman included 2 former NCAA champs (Nickerson and Escobedo). So to say that McDonough hasn't wrestled the level of competition that Taylor and Dake have is ridiculous...

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