Here's a Question

[OCGrappler 44]

doubleup-Thank you for checking on the McD stuff bro. I thought that guy was insane.

McD is a great wrestler. Any 3x finalist is obviously going to have beaten a lot of All-Americans. You can't even bring up Nickerson or Escobedo, that's like giving Dake credit for beating Darrion Caldwell. There is no Molinaro on that list, certainly no Taylor. Maybe not even a St. John. If McD wins 3 titles, you have to put him in the Top 30 or so. But his body of work isn't close to Dake's. 3 titles vs 2, redshirt vs no redshirt, 4 weight classes vs 1 weight class, beaten better opponents.

[Richard_Immel 40]

With all this talk about where dake and taylor rank all-time let's hear what som of your top 5-10 lists would be. Then we could compare where they would fit

[The_Historian 0]

Also agree that if Ruth wins out he's right there as well. How bout Mcdonough? Oliver? Stieber? I don't know that we've ever had studs like this in college at the same time.

 

 

How about 1982 with the Schultz brothers, the Banach brothers, the Scherr brothers, Nate Carr, Kenny Monday, Barry Davis, Andre Metzger, Bobby Weaver, and Bruce Baumgartner. They won an incredible number of Olympic (some at the '84 boycotted Olympics) and world medals.

[Dr_Gonzo 1]

oc-I didn't compare McD to Dake. I was appalled that you thought DT had wrestled tougher competition than McD. I said nothing about Dake. Dake's resume speaks for itself. My opinion is McD has wrestled tougher competition overall than Taylor to this point. To this point.

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

Ed Ruth may end up with a better career and record than Taylor. Possibly the 1st 3xer in Penn State history. Yes, David Taylor has an opportunity also, and I'd like to see him beat Dake, but...

 

McD gets no love. He may finish with one of the best records and creds from the best program in the NCAA. 1,2,1,1. Right up threre with Banach 1,1,2,1 and Lincoln Mc 1,1,2,1.

[OCGrappler 44]

Right, that is fair. But the Taylor/McD argument only takes place if Taylor winds up beating Dake. If Taylor loses to Dake in the finals, I don't see any possible argument for him over McD (if McD wins out). IF Taylor runs the table the rest of the way (which I don't will happen) and that includes a win over Dake, THEN you can make the case for him having faced better competition than McD. At this point in his career, he has not, I agree.

[CTMopar 17]

I think Iowa needs to focus on this one...If they lose it will be benefits of what you made reference to...Marine...What team do you support???

 

Ed Ruth may end up with a better career and record than Taylor. Possibly the 1st 3xer in Penn State history. Yes, David Taylor has an opportunity also, and I'd like to see him beat Dake, but...

 

McD gets no love. He may finish with one of the best records and creds from the best program in the NCAA. 1,2,1,1. Right up threre with Banach 1,1,2,1 and Lincoln Mc 1,1,2,1.

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

CT, my friend, just because I went to Penn State doesn't mean my Blue and White lenses don't show reality.

 

What Iowa has done in my lifetime has surpassed any team in any sport at the DI level.

 

I do want to see the Nits win the NCAA's every year, with "our" wrestlers on top of the podium at every weight.

 

But what I want and what will actually happen are 2 different things and I can accept that.

[LongShot 13]

Possible knocks on McDonough. He took a redshirt, he won his frosh year without having to go through Escobedo (who handled him at B 10) and Nickerson (who was hurt). He also got completely dominated his soph year final. He has not "wowed" like DT, Dake, Ruth, Oliver, and even Stieber. I see him as a great wrestler who is an even better manager of the weight cut. Slightly below level of the other guys in the discussion. IMO.

[two-six 1]

(A loss to Taylor is a "better" loss than getting pinned by Bubba.)

 

 

Sorry, I didn't read all the replies here, I stopped here.

 

Just my opinion I guess but wouldn't Dake be losing to a guy who was pinned by Bubba?

I always think this crap is funny about how many posters run down Taylor (not saying you are) , but then use him as quality wins for Dake/Howe.

Taylor just majored a Caldwell many of you predicted he wouldn't be able to beat.

If he beats Dake (that's a big if) and assuming he wins next season (Howe could play a factor/injury) he would be ahead of Dake. 2-1-1-1 and 1-1-1-2 are fairly equal, but as has been pointed out so many times before by countless posters these last two wins in regular season by Dake are meaningless. It's the matches in March that will decide the best, once and for all. Head to head in the finals, winner take all.

[tec87 349]

Possible knocks on McDonough. He took a redshirt, he won his frosh year without having to go through Escobedo (who handled him at B 10) and Nickerson (who was hurt). He also got completely dominated his soph year final. He has not "wowed" like DT, Dake, Ruth, Oliver, and even Stieber. I see him as a great wrestler who is an even better manager of the weight cut. Slightly below level of the other guys in the discussion. IMO.

 

I wouldn't knock him for the Escobedo or Nickerson thing. Nickerson got hurt and Escobedo got knocked off by the guy he beat in the finals.

 

McDonough is sitting at 108-4 for his career and has 33 majors, 39 falls, and 7 techs. So a 73% bonus point percentage.

 

His losses are to 3x AA Brandon Precin, 4x AA(1x Champ) Angel Escobedo, 3x AA(1x Champ) Anthony Robles, and Jesse Delgado 1x AA with 3 years remaining.

[OCGrappler 44]

Be careful with this one. If the regular season wins are "meaningless" in determining a wrestlers legacy, then Dake absolutely goes ahead of Cael if he wins the NCAA's this year. Argument for Dake is the 4 different weight classes and the lack of a redshirt. The argument for Cael is that Dake had a couple of regular season losses early in his career. If those regular season losses are "meaningless" towards a wrestlers legacy, Dake may be 2 months away from being the greatest college wrestler of all time. Of course the matches in March count the most. But all of the matches count.

 

While I think freestyle matches do shed SOME light on who is better, I would agree that you can't count a freestyle match towards someone's college legacy. But the folkstyle matches count, and Taylor is going to wind up either 0-3 or 1-2 agains Dake head to head. On top of everything else. 1-1-1-2 and 2-1-1-1 are very close, but that's where you have to take into account the Redshirt factor.

 

But we are really getting ahead of ourselves. To even get into this point, Taylor has to do something he's never done. Dake only has to repeat something he's done 3 times in 6 months.

[two-six 1]

I am talking about wrestlers who have wins in regular season and then don't win in NCAAs, or losses and then win it all as Dake has done. Cael falls into another category because he never lost.

[Ohio_Wrestling_Admin 0]

If they each finish with 3 titles and one runner up finish then career wise they'd be tied, but anyone who saw the two compete, and was ranking by best on the mat, would have Dake quite a few spots ahead of Taylor. What I'm saying is both have a better career than Jordan Burroughs, but neither is better than Jordan Burroughs. Burroughs quite a bit better than Dake, and Dake several spots better than Taylor.

If Taylor wins and then goes unbeaten next year, nobody but you will have Dake ahead of Taylor. Both three timers and four timer finalists, Taylor more dominant and he will have won the big one. Especially if it's an even somewhat clear cut win, since the first two wins seems to raise more questions than answers.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

If they each finish with 3 titles and one runner up finish then career wise they'd be tied, but anyone who saw the two compete, and was ranking by best on the mat, would have Dake quite a few spots ahead of Taylor. What I'm saying is both have a better career than Jordan Burroughs, but neither is better than Jordan Burroughs. Burroughs quite a bit better than Dake, and Dake several spots better than Taylor.

If Taylor wins and then goes unbeaten next year, nobody but you will have Dake ahead of Taylor. Both three timers and four timer finalists, Taylor more dominant and he will have won the big one. Especially if it's an even somewhat clear cut win, since the first two wins seems to raise more questions than answers.

 

I definitely agree with this.

[OCGrappler 44]

What if Dake pins Taylor (again) and then Cael runs out on the mat and Dake pins him too? Can Taylor win 2 titles before you all give him 3? Dake already has 3.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

What if Dake pins Taylor (again) and then Cael runs out on the mat and Dake pins him too? Can Taylor win 2 titles before you all give him 3? Dake already has 3.

 

Chill dude, 50% of this board is always hypothetically speaking. Yes, Dake is the man and is the favorite. But the question was always IF.

[Mokoma 326]

I'm in the "no rs" camp. I think that puts Kyle in very rare territory, especially for a career middle wgt who has appeared in 4 wgt classes. I don't think any other big time wrestling celeb has this credential and a RS year does make a huge diff.If he wins the NCAAs and i expect he may, he will be top of list of 3 with Cael and Pat Smith. Fairness dictates that all should be aware that prior to 1972 you could not be a 4Xer due to lack of FR eligibility rules. I'm guessing Gable, Uetake and Hodge would have reached the goal. It may also be instructive to young whippersnappers that both Danny 46-0 and Yojiro 58-0 did not need to contend with the grueling schedue modern wrestlers must. I also think John Smith's record superior to all of them. a 2X champ 1, 2nd in NCAAs and one zilch with a 154-7-2 record plus his world style record from 1987-92 includes: 2 Oly Champs 4 World Champs and 2 Pan Ams all at 62 kg is remarkable. I don't wish to start a battle and I certainly am not denigrating any of the others mention who are all great stars in the wrestling firmament. Danny Hodge is my favorite because at the ripe old age of 80 he can still crush an apple in his huge hands. He is great with the public and a delightful public persona. Once in Tulsa I saw him take 8 pages from a broadsheet newspaper and ball it up with one hand. Give this a try using 2 or 3 sheets and 4 if you are feelimg particularly strong. It takes considerable dexterity and strength. I'm guessing only a few of you can accomplish this.

 

LMAO, wow you really are clueless if you think Gable won have won 4 titles if he could wrestle as a freshman.

[silver-medal 670]

Currently competing in college: L. Stieber, Oliver, Dake, Taylor and Ruth. All five are incredible and will be on world teams in the future.

[BigApple 86]

Pat Smith wasn't over powering strong, it was his technique that was superior. Also the traditionatil Smith quickness, blance, and flexibility.

 

I've watched some film of the old guys before my time such as Tommy Evans. If you want to go top 10 of all time you have to go back to right after WWII and include guys like Bill Koll, Bill Smith, and Tommy Evans in the discussion.

 

Both Dake and Taylor are excellent in my book. Dake was criticized for having lower quality of competition when he won his first two NCAA titles. He was being called the worst 2-time champ in history by some on this forum. After he won last year, and had the excellent performance in the Olympic trials he is being considered one of those for GOAT.

 

I think you have to go with Sanderson, Hodge, Uetake, Kemp, Gable, Evans, Mark Schultz, Bill Koll, John and Pat Smith, Carleton Haselrig, and several others when you discuss the top 10 of all time. Burroughs is on his way to being in that conversation. We'll see how Dale, Ruth, and Taylor wind up after their careers are over. I think Taylor hasn't come close to reaching his physical maturity, while Dale and Ruth have.

[BDB50 11]

If it's close, you have to look at the redshirt. And remember, Taylor redshirted because he got smoked by Cyler in the wrestle-off, and Cyler wasn't an NCAA champion level wrestler. I don't see a case for Taylor being better than a 7th or something if he wrestled as a true frosh.

 

If Dake wins out, he is obviously top 3 and I think you could make a good argument for...well...I'm not going to make it yet. If Dake were to lose to Taylor in the finals AND Taylor winds up 2-1-1-1 then they both are going to be Top 10, Dake probably a spot or 2 higher. (A loss to Taylor is a "better" loss than getting pinned by Bubba.)

 

At this point, the finals match means more to Taylor's legacy than Dake's in a weird way. Barring something crazy (like losing to someone other than Taylor) Dake is going to go down as one of the 10 best NCAA wrestlers of all time. For Taylor, the difference between 2-1-2-1 and 2-1-1-1 is the difference between Top 10 and probably not in the Top 20.

 

For example, IF Taylor loses to Dake in the finals but wins out next year, could you put Taylor ahead of Askren? Mocco? It is close. If you are a 3x champ and 4x finalist, you are in small company. Once you get into the mix with the 2x champs, you are behind a lot of people and in the mix with a lot of others. (Let's be honest, if Taylor loses to Dake and Ruth wins out for his career...you can't put Taylor ahead of Ruth IMO.)

 

If Taylor doesn't lose again, he will be one of the 10 most accomplished college wrestlers ever. There are MORE than 20 guys who have won 3+ titles, I don't see how you can put Taylor in the Top 20 if he loses in the finals...even if it's to Dake.

Who is to say after Taylor got smoked by Cyler he doesn't progress throughout the seqason and win at the NCAAs? Remember he just missed a take down on Cyler at the Nittany Lion Open at the end of the match which would have given him the win.

 

Likewise Dake had a couple of losses as a true freshman before winning it. Daake was also at the right school at the right time. Taylor did not compete as a freshman because Cael had options in Cyler and Bubba had Cyler not transfered. Dake wrestled because he was the best option for Cornell and I don't recall any all American types for him to fight through for the position.

[vsnej 199]

OCGrappler says:

 

"But we are really getting ahead of ourselves. To even get into this point, Taylor has to do something he's never done. Dake only has to repeat something he's done 3 times in 6 months."

 

Taylor vs Dake - Eventually...

 

He wins. The only question is will that happen this March.

 

In the history of our sport has any guy beaten the other guy - when the two are so evenly matched - consistently without losing a single bout? Think back to the Randy Lewis, Rickey Dellagatta, Daryl Burley, Mike Land, Leroy & John Smith, Andre Metzger wars. I know many of these involve Freestyle but the Taylor vs Dake discussion does include last years US Trials.

 

History tells us that when two competitors meet often with one winning over the other - the guy losing at first will most likely, eventually win.

 

The 2012 NJ 120 lb state Champ lost 3 times to the same guy last year before defeating him in the state finals. Scenarios like this exist in every decade of NJ wrestling history. Yeah, I know - that is high school this is college...

 

It's just hard to keep defeating the same great wrestler over and over again. I am not predicting a Taylor win over Dake in March...

 

But if we have another Taylor/Dake matchup in the 2013 NCAA finals I believe it will be more - not less - difficult for Dake to beat Taylor again.

 

On the other hand, if it does get to that - another Dake vs Taylor final - Dake will have only one more bout to win, a 1-match winning streak if you will... Sounds rather simple at that point compared to looking at it from a "winning-4-in-a-row" at different weights perspective. (OK, been thinking about this for a while... how many wrestlers even compete at 4 different weights in 4 years let alone win it all?)

 

Hmmm... OK, maybe not his March...

 

Either way a Taylor/Dake final makes history

[xander 346]

Varner Brester was something like 7-1 career in matches

 

FYI I was at that 1 loss in Lincoln - Varner also lost to herbst wisky (I was at that match too in evsnston). Only two folk losses in varners jr and sr season and I was in attendance (only two collegiate events I have been to in past 10 years in fact) - glad I didn't go to london and jinx him there too

[sbdude 16]

How many times had Hendricks beaten Perry prior to their finals match???

 

 

No dog in this fight, just saying. Especially when the matches have been as close as they have.

[dsnc471 25]

I think Hendricks had beaten Perry 7-8 times before his one loss in the NCAA finals. Another pair that had a long history was Lincoln McIlravy and Chris Bono. They wrestled something like 20 times throughout NCAA and freestyle careers, and didn't McIlravy win them all?