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farmer79

Iowa vs Penn State (hypothetical)

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1st off this whole thread is pretty ridiculous, but then again I am responding so whatever.

 

MSU158...re Jim Martin...on one post you said McD destroys him, on another you said McD would have given him fits. I'd say a good match-up, but no way would McD have destroyed him. Martin was 155-9 or so (some draws in there too) and other than Bonomo I don't think anyone came close to destroying him.   

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KTG119,

 

My reasoning is mainly due to Martin not being able to make 125 under today's rules.  He would be a sucked out version at 125.  That was my point in several of the arguments.  Still, McDonough was a gamer. He made the finals his first three years and should have his senior year without the injury(I don't care that they refused to use it as an excuse, it is the truth).  Take away the 165lber with one leg and he was a 3x champ without the injury.

 

All things equal, I think the score would be close, but McDonough would never be in danger of losing.

 

 

Edited to add:  I know Martin started off at 118, but he was his best version at 126.

Edited by MSU158

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landlordbob,

 

Wow, we definitely define toe to toe differently.  They gave a great effort in their dual against Iowa, but even after pulling off two upsets(Gulibon over Clark and Hammond over Moore) they still lost 18-12.  At Big Tens, Iowa tied with tOSU for 1st, PSU took 5th.  Finally, at Nationals Iowa took 2nd with 6 AA's(4th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 5th) and all 10 Qualifiers.  PSU took 6th with 5 AA's(8th,5th, 1st, 3rd, 8th) and 7 Qualifiers.

 

So after all of the above, why in the hell would you think it makes tOSU's win laughable.  In fact, your argument is laughable.  Even with Retherford and Megaludis you weren't gaining the 35 points to surpass tOSU.  Regardless, how is Sanderson's decision Ryan's fault?  If PSU could have won but made decisions that didn't let them, wouldn't the joke be on THEM?

 

tOSU scored 102 points. They did it in honorable fashion.  They had a guy try his hardest with no arms(figuratively).  They deserved and EARNED their win.  Any statement to the contrary is LAUGHABLE..................

Edited by MSU158

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landlordbob,

 

Wow, we definitely define toe to toe differently.  They gave a great effort in their dual against Iowa, but even after pulling off two upsets(Gulibon over Clark and Hammond over Moore) they still lost 18-12.  At Big Tens, Iowa tied with tOSU for 1st, PSU took 5th.  Finally, at Nationals Iowa took 2nd with 6 AA's(4th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 5th) and all 10 Qualifiers.  PSU took 6th with 5 AA's(8th,5th, 1st, 3rd, 8th) and 7 Qualifiers.

 

So after all of the above, why in the hell would you think it makes tOSU's win laughable.  In fact, your argument is laughable.  Even with Retherford and Megaludis you weren't gaining the 35 points to surpass tOSU.  Regardless, how is Sanderson's decision Ryan's fault?  If PSU could have won but made decisions that didn't let them, wouldn't the joke be on THEM?

 

tOSU scored 102 points. They did it in honorable fashion.  They had a guy try his hardest with no arms(figuratively).  They deserved and EARNED their win.  Any statement to the contrary is LAUGHABLE..................

 

 

You are doing almost as much defending of Iowa there as of Ohio State. Why? It isn't like Iowa wrestled all that great at NCAA's. You could argue Penn State wrestled better at NCAA's to get 67.5 points out of a team with a lot of back ups than Iowa's 84 points from their starters. 

 

One thing we agree on is that Ohio State deserved it. They had the most points by far. 

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TBar,

 

Because his main argument against tOSU was PSU standing toe to toe with Iowa.  That was inaccurate and I pointed out why.  The argument wasn't whether PSU performed well versus their expectations.  That I agree with.  However, a lot of backups?  Conaway, Gulibon, Beitz, D. Alton(injury related), Hammond, Brown, McCutcheon, McIntosh and Lawson were the starters.  Only one of them(Conaway) wouldn't have wrestled if PSU put out their best lineup.  That argument is debunked.....

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TBar,

 

Because his main argument against tOSU was PSU standing toe to toe with Iowa.  That was inaccurate and I pointed out why.  The argument wasn't whether PSU performed well versus their expectations.  That I agree with.  However, a lot of backups?  Conaway, Gulibon, Beitz, D. Alton(injury related), Hammond, Brown, McCutcheon, McIntosh and Lawson were the starters.  Only one of them(Conaway) wouldn't have wrestled if PSU put out their best lineup.  That argument is debunked.....

 

 

Only one of them would not have wrestled had PSU put out their best wrestlers last year? It is like you don't even know the PSU roster. That is obviously false. 

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I don't make assumptions on starting true freshmen.  I would put Lawson over Nevills LAST SEASON.  I would put Brown over Nickall LAST SEASON.  Nolf would undoubtedly have been better than what happened at 157, but do you honestly think they should have sacrificed his redshirt at the end of the season when they finally realized D. Alton wasn't going to be able to compete?

 

 

PSU's realistic best lineup last season:

 

Megaludis

Gulibon

Retherford

Beitz

Alton/Frey----If you really want to argue Nolf I can see it, but I still disagree that it would have been the right move.

Hammond

Brown

McCutcheon

McIntosh

Lawson

 

How obviously false is it?  You are basing your whole argument off 1 guy(Nolf)????????

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Their best line up last year would have included Megaludis, Retherford and Nolf, and none of them wrestled. So OBVIOUSLY three guys who did wrestle would have had to have not wrestled. You are making this harder than it is, MSU. 

 

Three guys in requires three coming out. Not one, as you stated, three. 

Edited by TBar1977

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TBar, 

 

 

I included Megaludis and Retherford.  I only listed 9 starters(GO BACK AND LOOK) and of those 9, I said the only one that would have been excluded was Conaway.  I didn't list Moss as it was a foregone conclusion and he didn't sniff qualifying for Nationals.  I still argue against Nolf since a healthy Senior D. Alton was still the better choice.  All DI teams deal with injuries and very few pull a redshirting freshman last minute to fill in.

 

 

 

Finally,

 

You said a lot of backups.  I see one.  Moss.  Conaway is not a backup.  D. Alton is not a backup.  You make your argument sound like they just threw their weak links on the mat.  With their best lineup they would have had to sit an AA(Conaway) and Moss.  I will not give you Nolf because of an injured D. Alton.  Both Megaludis and Retherford would have been upgrades but Conaway was a solid contributor that Megaludis wasn't guaranteed to outscore by a ton........

Edited by MSU158

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PSU could put John Fritz in at 126, but not sure he would defeat a Terry Brands.

 

Scott Lynch would have a rough time with Ironside, Troy Steiner or  Randy Lewis.

 

Retherford potentially (but not now) has the chops to go with Brands- maybe in a dual now, but at the end of a tournament he hasn't been proven yet.

 

Ruth and Ed Banach would be interesting IF Ruth comes to wrestle.

 

Actually you would dump McIlravy or Troy Steiner down to 149 as well, and stick Kinseth up at 157.

 

But I thought this thread was about 2016? 

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MSU, you were speaking about how many additional points Penn State could have scored last year had they wrestled everyone. You also brought Iowa up. Well, no matter how you slice it, if PSU wrestled everyone they'd have had three more guys wrestling who'd have improved their point total. I believe they'd have still fell short to Ohio State, but I also believe they'd have sailed past Iowa like the Hawkeyes were standing still.

 

Mega would have outscored Conaway AND further pushed Gilman down the podium, Zain would have outscored Beitz AND pushed Sorenson down the podium, and Nolf would have outscored Alton. Imo, PSU would have finished 2nd and Iowa would have finished 3rd. 

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With a real answer to the OP's question:

 

125 - Nico vs. Gilman is a coin flip. People are prematurely counting Nico out because of the Dance loss but I thought he was the better wrestler and controlled the match until the close seconds. This one will be decided by 1-2 points either way. For the sake of argument, let's give it to Gilman. Iowa 3-0

 

133 - Clark has a pretty significant advantage. Conaway is just too small and I see Clark finishing 3rd on the podium come march. Clark wins by 4-6. Iowa 6-0

 

141 - Guilibon wins a decision. Iowa 6-3

 

149 - Sorensen has made great improvements over a strong freshman campaign but Zain looks unstoppable. In the dual's marquee match up, I can't go against Zain, obvious Penn State bias aside. Zain rides him out and wins by 4. Tie dual 6-6

 

157 - There are maybe only 5 guys 157 who Nolf doesn't get bonus points against. Cooper is not on that list. Nolf wins by major with a decent shot at the tech. Penn State 10-6

 

165 - Rhodes just wrestled Jordan to a close match but he's been pinned 2 times this season and has given up bonus points in a lot of his losses. Corey is funky and unorthodox but very inconsistent as well and has had conditioning issues. All that said, it can either be a close fought decision with a slight edge to Corey or he could do something funky and get the fall. I'm going with Corey by 3. Penn State 13-6

 

174 - Outside of something ridiculous happening like the Jackson match, Meyer can't run with Nickal's motor or length. Bo wins comfortably by 5-7 with a shot at bonus points. Penn State 16-6

 

184 - Outside of 125, this is the closest match up. Brooks has more big match experience so I have to give him the edge in a tightly contested bout winning by 2. Penn State 16-9

 

197 - Burak is tough but I don't think he's quite on the MorMac/Cox level right now. Even with that in mind, Morgan has a tendency to wrestle to the ability of his competition so a Burak win would be far from surprising. He has also struggled to get out on bigger wrestlers in the past (Cox and Hartmann as prime examples). All this said, I think Morgan is a half step better than Burak at the moment and wins by 1, possibly going into OT/SV. Penn State 19-9

 

285 - Phipps is just too small. Stoll wins by major. Penn State 19-13.

 

Swing bouts: 125, 149, 165, 184, and 197. 

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