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HurricaneWrestling

Is it time for a rule change...

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...regarding the mat dimensions. 

 

Under the current rule, the scorer's table may be set up only 5 feet from the OOB line.  Consequently, it's not unusual for the wrestling action to send one or more wrestlers crashing into the table. Sometimes this occurs as a result of dirty wrestling (e.g., shove after the whistle, etc.).  

 

But other times, it seems that recent rule changes are the culprit.  Where once a wrestler needed to have "supporting points" in bounds, now he only needs a toe on the line.  And the newest rule requiring a call by the ref every time they go OOB, has led to more flurries at the edge.  (e.g., guys trying to shoot or shove the opponent OOB in order to get - or avoid - a stall call.)

 

I'm not advocating requiring new mats due to the expense, just placing the scorer's table further away than the mat's edge (say 10' instead of 5'). I noticed in the Okla St- Mizzou dual, the Cowboys had ample room around the mat, but - for whatever reason - it seems most other teams want the scorer's table right at the mat's edge.  (Also, using 5' wide fold-up mats - like the gymnasts use - to surround the mat would provide an additional margin of safety.)

 

I think the Rules Committee should look into this issue before someone suffers a serious injury.

 

 

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Absolutely nothing will be done until a major incident or two finally inspires a flurry of immediate activity. Same way weigh-in rules were finally changed.

 

It's incredible how something so obviously necessary can drag on and on unchanged until tragedy reminds the powers that be of their negligence.

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Especially those scorer's tables that are essentially electronic signs with plastic panels on the front. Under the right circumstances someone could be cut or impaled by a fractured panel.

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As much as I hate to say it, college wrestling needs to go back and make the out of bounds line, out of bounds.  Name another sport that allows action beyond the playing surface marked boundary lines?  While we may get more action by the and part of either wrestler on or inside the boundary line and scoring opportunities, if wrestlers know the can't go out of bounds (step out) they will not go there.  They will become conditioned and coached to wrestle in bounds.  Something has to be sacrificed to keep wrestlers in bounds and safe from obstacles or concede the obstacles aren't that big of an issue.

Edited by Rakkasan91

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As much as I hate to say it, college wrestling needs to go back and make the out of bounds line, out of bounds.  Name another sport that allows action beyond the playing surface marked boundary lines?  While we may get more action by the and part of either wrestler on or inside the boundary line and scoring opportunities, if wrestlers know the can't go out of bounds (step out) they will not go there.  They will become conditioned and coached to wrestle in bounds.  Something has to be sacrificed to keep wrestlers in bounds and safe from obstacles or concede the obstacles aren't that big of an issue.

 

Soccer. 

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Agree. Although this may only be possible at single duals.

 

there's not enough space at, say Opens, Conferences, and NCAA's

Good point, but perhaps other approaches could be used at those events. After that HS kid in NC was paralyzed, they assigned an extra official to each mat at their state tournament. His sole job was to prevent collisions, including throwing himself between the wrestler and any obstacle (tables, bleachers, walls, etc.) if needed.

 

In reading about that incident, I also noted that the HS standard already calls for a minimum 10 ft distance between the OOB line and the scorer's table (where space permits).

 

http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/a-tragedy-changes-how-high-school-wrestling-is-officiated-in-north-carolina/Content?oid=4161616

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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One day, it would seem, a wrestler will roll or be thrown into a table or a chair. He will split open his head. Blood all over the floor.

 

Then there will be some action taken in this matter. I promise.

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First, I agree with the safety concern. However this isn't new. Wrestling has expanded the area but not by the amount people suggest. As far back as I personally wrestled ('65) wrestling continued as long as two supporting points were in. Could be one of each wrestler or two of one. We've gained about a foot or more by now allowing any single point of either being inside a vertical over OB line (not a supporting point, or even in contact). The bigger change is allowing back points and falls OB, rather than having to pull the opponent back in.

 

Sports that play "out of bounds"?

Football: receiver forced out can come back in. You can score crossing the goal line extended out of bounds.

Basketball: every inbounds play is subject to specific rules (allowed to travel after a bade basket but not on simple inbounds) and time limits.

Baseball: caught pop fouls are outs, as are two strike foul bunts. Batters and catchers box are in foul ground. A grounder that passes first or third fair is still live even when it subsequently goes foul. A "HR" caught by outfielder falling over OF wall (think Boston RF) is an out if he climbs back in with it, or is a HR if he tosses it back.

Soccer: any part of ball still over line, no matter where player is, in in bounds play.

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As much as I hate to say it, college wrestling needs to go back and make the out of bounds line, out of bounds.  Name another sport that allows action beyond the playing surface marked boundary lines?  While we may get more action by the and part of either wrestler on or inside the boundary line and scoring opportunities, if wrestlers know the can't go out of bounds (step out) they will not go there.  They will become conditioned and coached to wrestle in bounds.  Something has to be sacrificed to keep wrestlers in bounds and safe from obstacles or concede the obstacles aren't that big of an issue.

No! This is one of the best rule changes in recent years, forced all to continue wrestling instead of simple bailing out. With changes this year, even better. But we do need a larger mat/buffer area beyond the circle.

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First, I agree with the safety concern. However this isn't new. Wrestling has expanded the area but not by the amount people suggest. As far back as I personally wrestled ('65) wrestling continued as long as two supporting points were in. Could be one of each wrestler or two of one. We've gained about a foot or more by now allowing any single point of either being inside a vertical over OB line (not a supporting point, or even in contact). The bigger change is allowing back points and falls OB, rather than having to pull the opponent back in.

 

Sports that play "out of bounds"?

Football: receiver forced out can come back in. You can score crossing the goal line extended out of bounds.

Basketball: every inbounds play is subject to specific rules (allowed to travel after a bade basket but not on simple inbounds) and time limits.

Baseball: caught pop fouls are outs, as are two strike foul bunts. Batters and catchers box are in foul ground. A grounder that passes first or third fair is still live even when it subsequently goes foul. A "HR" caught by outfielder falling over OF wall (think Boston RF) is an out if he climbs back in with it, or is a HR if he tosses it back.

Soccer: any part of ball still over line, no matter where player is, in in bounds play.

I get your point, not exactly what I was trying to say regarding out of bounds though.  While other sports have some caveats tot he out of bounds rule (s), wrestling lets active competition beyond the boundary line for long periods of time.  Virtually no caveats for wrestling as long as one part of either wrestler is in.

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I get your point, not exactly what I was trying to say regarding out of bounds though. While other sports have some caveats tot he out of bounds rule (s), wrestling lets active competition beyond the boundary line for long periods of time. Virtually no caveats for wrestling as long as one part of either wrestler is in.

i.e. They are in bounds, by definition.

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Rakkasan91, on 24 Jan 2016 - 3:49 PM, said:snapback.png

I get your point, not exactly what I was trying to say regarding out of bounds though. While other sports have some caveats tot he out of bounds rule (s), wrestling lets active competition beyond the boundary line for long periods of time. Virtually no caveats for wrestling as long as one part of either wrestler is in.

i.e. They are in bounds, by definition.

 

Exactly, and like soccer.  By definition you are in bounds, still in play as long as the ball (any minutely small portion of the edge of the ball) is in contact with the last blade of grass painted white on the outer edge of the line (or suspended over said edge), the player can be beyond the edge.  

 

In wrestling as long as 1 supporting point meets those same criteria of touching or suspended over the far outside of the edge,  play (ok, not really "play" but ...)  continues, the other "player" can be completely beyond the edge.

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Well the 42 sq ft mat with the 32' diameter circle needs to become bigger say 45' square with the 32' circle. Minimum  border 6.5'.

 

But with a 52' sq mat, with a 42' diameter circle, there are two ways to go. Add a 1.5' by 18' section to each side of the mat, Which is 6.5' minimum protection everywhere. Or refinish that mat with a 39' diameter circle, and you have 6.5' protection.    Actually with a 52' circle, I would go to 38' circle and 7' min protection

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Rakkasan91, on 24 Jan 2016 - 3:49 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Exactly, and like soccer.  By definition you are in bounds, still in play as long as the ball (any minutely small portion of the edge of the ball) is in contact with the last blade of grass painted white on the outer edge of the line (or suspended over said edge), the player can be beyond the edge.  

 

In wrestling as long as 1 supporting point meets those same criteria of touching or suspended over the far outside of the edge,  play (ok, not really "play" but ...)  continues, the other "player" can be completely beyond the edge.

I wouldn't use the term "supporting point." It's just any body part irrespective of whether its supporting anything or not.

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Two of the best rules changes over the last 10 years or so.. has been:

1.  The expanded OOB (along with the line being in)...  and tagging on this.. the expansion of the NF and Fall beyond the line.

 

2. The new OOB stalling...  ie.. the back-out / push-out / action call.  I was VERY suspect of this rule when it came out.  The implementation and coaches acceptance of this rule seemed highly improbable...   Imagine my surprise as nearly all coaches have embraced this.. and have adamantly instructed their wrestlers to " work in bounds ", and the objection to their wrestler being called for the back-out/push-out is minimal. 

It's Great.. the wrestler now fight to 'STAY IN'. 

I hate the rule...  but I LOVE the results.

 

As far as injury resulting from scoring tables.. etc...   I'm not seeing it.  I have YET to personally see any injury as a result of running into a table or floor, above and beyond any minor bruise...

Where facilities allow... should we move scoring tables back and add additional matting beyond the required 5'.. absolutely..

But let's not jump up and down screaming that the sky is falling...

This is NOT a big issue.

Edited by conanNY

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Please example, did they change the rule?  

Not sure what your question is. Hasn't been supporting points since they went to this setup. Doesn't even have to be anything on the mat. In the cylinder. EIWA semis about 4 years ago, Nate Brown wrestling kid from Penn. All 4 feet out in a standing position. But Nate's right hip was in the cylinder. Then he got behind trying to take him down, they went maybe a quarter of the arc around the outside of the circle except for Nate's right elbow from basically a tight waist scenario being in. Hip and then elbow a few feet off the mat. I can't swear that from my angle it was accurate but if not it wasn't far out. I don't think they had video review available then.

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Not sure what your question is. Hasn't been supporting points since they went to this setup. Doesn't even have to be anything on the mat. In the cylinder. EIWA semis about 4 years ago, Nate Brown wrestling kid from Penn. All 4 feet out in a standing position. But Nate's right hip was in the cylinder. Then he got behind trying to take him down, they went maybe a quarter of the arc around the outside of the circle except for Nate's right elbow from basically a tight waist scenario being in. Hip and then elbow a few feet off the mat. I can't swear that from my angle it was accurate but if not it wasn't far out. I don't think they had video review available then.

 

Then they've changed the rules.  It use to be a hand, foot etc.  didn't have to be on the mat, could be above the cylinder (as in my example) but the fact that you've got a larger than average butt  and all other body parts (both wrestlers) are completely outside the cylinder but a 1/10 mm of your butt is touching the invisible cylinder above the line did not used to count.  So if it does now then that's a rule change I wasn't aware of and very difficult to enforce.

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Rakkasan is right. I like watching wrestling on the edge too, but it simply is not practical. Even if they made the mats bigger (which would be very costly), it would still be almost impossible to run a tournament in many facilities. I am probably beating a dead horse here, the the solution is easy... implement the step out rule as in freestyle. 

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Then they've changed the rules.  It use to be a hand, foot etc.  didn't have to be on the mat, could be above the cylinder (as in my example) but the fact that you've got a larger than average butt  and all other body parts (both wrestlers) are completely outside the cylinder but a 1/10 mm of your butt is touching the invisible cylinder above the line did not used to count.  So if it does now then that's a rule change I wasn't aware of and very difficult to enforce.

 

 

Obviously, they changed the rules. That's what happens when you have a rule change. It's been this way for at least 3 years as in my example. This was in the previous 2 year rulebook. 

I don't know if it's harder than some of the situations in the past where if the knee was down and out it was out but if up and out it was in. It does require looking in a different direction. And it's easier in the sense that you're in until you are clearly out. And to reread this post of yours, to my knowledge, it was never just a foot or hand once they went to the cylinder interpretaion. What's the difference between a hand or head over the cylinder or anything else given that they aren't points of support?

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