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Can you bridge off your back during a tech and get a pin?

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But a defensive pin isn't a change of position, so the points aren't given. Not like it matters but honestly I would rather have a defensive pin be possible because if you put yourself in that position while you have the tech, I feel you deserve to get pinned. I'd like to hear from a ref about this though.

Edited by maolsen

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See Section III - Interpretations of the current rulebook, under Rule 2.14 on pages 110-111. It describes 4 situations with Q's and A's which seemingly cover the issue(s) under discussion. It appears clear that once tech-fall criteria has been reached, the only way a wrestler can lose is by flagrant misconduct. That would necessarily rule out the other guy pinning his opponent or a self-pin.

 

Another interesting situation pointed out in that section is that a wrestler could reach tech-fall criteria, but still only end up winning by a major decision. For example, a wrestler is winning by a score of 11-0 and puts his opponent on his back. He then gets 4 swipes, so he has 11 in the bag and the ref is holding 4 until the pinning situation expires. The match ends with the wrestlers still in a pinning situation. It's only a major though, because the loser had a minute of riding time. Final score: 15-1.

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See Section III - Interpretations of the current rulebook, under Rule 2.14 on pages 110-111. It describes 4 situations with Q's and A's which seemingly cover the issue(s) under discussion. It appears clear that once tech-fall criteria has been reached, the only way a wrestler can lose is by flagrant misconduct. That would necessarily rule out the other guy pinning his opponent or a self-pin.

 

Another interesting situation pointed out in that section is that a wrestler could reach tech-fall criteria, but still only end up winning by a major decision. For example, a wrestler is winning by a score of 11-0 and puts his opponent on his back. He then gets 4 swipes, so he has 11 in the bag and the ref is holding 4 until the pinning situation expires. The match ends with the wrestlers still in a pinning situation. It's only a major though, because the loser had a minute of riding time. Final score: 15-1.

 

 

First, I believe the OP was talking HS but in any case, this is interesting. And I believe the RT interpretation is a direct contradiction to all the other scenarios. Which of the other situations (self/defensive fall, reversal) does not always create a scenario where the points aren't scored at the same time as or before the held NF points? You don't score the NF points until the NF position is over. The fall likely would not end the NF criteria. The reversal might or might not end the criteria prior to the gaining of control.

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More detailed info:

 

Their guy was cheap tilting our kid and was already dangerously close to pinning himself.  I was yelling bridge back in to our guy.  Our guy just straightened his back and bridged in and the ref had to call the fall.  The kid was flat for about 3 seconds.  The position didnt really change other than our guy got their guys shoulder down about another inch.  They didnt really move at all.

 

Later that night I checked the rule book and it didnt really clarify what happens if the position does not change.  My guy bridged and shifted a little, but the position was an inch different than when near fall was being swiped.

 

The only reason why I care about this is that I had always thought the period must end, the position must change, or the hold must be relinquished for nearfall to be awarded.  I like to always have a complete and extremely thorough knowledge of all rules and this one has really stumped me.

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Unless the pin occurred before the ref swiped twice for near fall, the sequence of the scoring still points to a tech. Two (or more) backs were scored before the fall, which makes the TF occur before the fall. I don't see how it could be scored any other way.

 

Now, if you guy bridged back and stuck him before two swipes, then that's definitely a fall.

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Correct - they are earned but not awarded b/c you can't get two sets of NF points for the same hold. The minute the bridge gets to a point that control would change, the ref would have to award the NF points and the match automatically stops. Someone posed the rules, which most state HS associations follow, and the ONLY way to lose after accumulating your points for a TF is through a flagrant foul. Your opponent cannot bridge you thru and pin you. The only reason the match isn't stopped immediately on NF points when in a TF situation is because the offensive wrestler can still secure the pin for that extra team point.

The key word here is "earned."  Once the ref swipes twice (our four, or five times, whatever necessary to earn the points needed for the tech) the offensive wrestler as EARNED the near fall, regardless of anything else and in folkstyle, the tech has also been earned, though the offensive wrestler can still seek a fall.  Even a self-pin can't take that away.  In freestyle, that isn't the case because of the rule regarding continuous action.  But even there, back when you had the five count for the "hold" it wasn't considered "continuous action" if you got a count towards the hold point, only if the action rolled straight through. 

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Unless the pin occurred before the ref swiped twice for near fall, the sequence of the scoring still points to a tech. Two (or more) backs were scored before the fall, which makes the TF occur before the fall. I don't see how it could be scored any other way.

 

Now, if you guy bridged back and stuck him before two swipes, then that's definitely a fall.

 

That's the way I see it.  Anyway. that brings up an interesting question concerning the example of a guy up (effectively) by 15-0 who is holding his opponent in a near-fall position with short time remaining.  However, the opponent has more than enough riding time to be awarded one point if the bout ends in regulation.  So, the whistle blows ending the match and the final score is 15-1, only a major not a tech.  (A similar example is in the Q & A's so presumably that's the rule.)

 

Now, assuming the winning wrestler had his opponent in a chip tilt - where he could keep him in near-fall criteria - could he then self-pin to end the match early and negate the riding time, thus salvaging the tech (instead of having to settle for the major)?

.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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That's the way I see it.  Anyway. that brings up an interesting question concerning the example of a guy up (effectively) by 15-0 who is holding his opponent in a near-fall position with short time remaining.  However, the opponent has more than enough riding time to be awarded one point if the bout ends in regulation.  So, the whistle blows ending the match and the final score is 15-1, only a major not a tech.  (A similar example is in the Q & A's so presumably that's the rule.)

 

Now, assuming the winning wrestler had his opponent in a chip tilt - where he could keep him in near-fall criteria - could he then self-pin to end the match early and negate the riding time, thus salvaging the tech (instead of having to settle for the major)?

.

Why not just let the guy off his back?

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Why not just let the guy off his back?

 

You're right, Makoma, that'd be much easier and less controversial for the ref to call. However, I wanted to construct a scenario where you could both self-pin and win the match and win by a tech instead of a major  - just because it sounds so counter-intuitive (almost absurd, really).

 

We really need DF for this thread.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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keep in mind that the points are not awarded when the ref completes the count (swipe). the points are awarded when the pinning combination is released.  i.e., in the following instance, the defensive fall would count:

 

wrestler in control turns his opponent.

ref counts for back points

controlling wrestler tries to better the existing hold to get the fall

while working for the fall he pins himself

defensive fall

 

I could see it most likely happening with a far-side cradle, like in the Riddick match I mentioned earlier.  Although I was wrong about the score (as Gimp pointed out), if Riddick had turned his opponent while holding a 14-point lead, he still would have lost by fall.

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From the rulebook:

 

2.9.3  Counting the Near Fall

 

... A near fall is ended when the defensive wrestler is no longer in a pinning situation.  The referee must not signal the score for a near fall until the situation is ended.  ...

 

 

>>>

So, the wrestler in control could pin himself before the defensive wrestler gets out of the pinning situation - when the NF points would be awarded.  The pin occurs prior to the NF points.

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Also from the rulebook:

 

Rule 2.14 Technical Fall (page 110 and 111 )

 

...a wrestler earning a differential of 15 points can only lose by committing an act of flagrant misconduct...

 

 

>>>

So, how can a wrestler lose by self-pin, when the rule states that the only way he can lose is by flagrant conduct?

.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Also from the rulebook:

 

Rule 2.14 Technical Fall (page 110 and 111 )

 

...a wrestler earning a differential of 15 points can only lose by committing an act of flagrant misconduct...

 

 

>>>

So, how can a wrestler lose by self-pin, when the rule states that the only way he can lose is by flagrant conduct?

.

Because he has not earned the TF yet - points were being held, but not yet awarded at the time of the fall because the defensive wrestler was still in danger of being pinned. Edited by lu_alum

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Because he has not earned the TF yet - points were being held, but not yet awarded at the time of the fall because the defensive wrestler was still in danger of being pinned.

 

Here's the verbatim part of Rule 2.14 on page 111 of the current NCAA rulebook:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SITUATION 2: Wrestler A, who is winning by 14 points, has Wrestler B in a pinning situation and has earned but has not been awarded a four-point near fall.  Wrestler A is pinned while still trying to pin Wrestler B.

 

QUESTION:  Does Wrestler A win by technical fall or does Wrestler B win by a fall?

 

RULING: Wrestler A wins by a technical fall.  Wrestler A has earned a 15-point or greater differential and after which can lose only by committing an act of flagrant misconduct.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see from Situation 2 above, Wrestler A was pinned prior to being awarded the held points.  Nonetheless Wrestler A still won the match by technical fall.  Points being held by the referee are still earned points.  The ref just can't award them until the defensive wrestler is no longer in near-fall criteria. And once the offensive wrestler gets a 15-point differential he can't lose except by committing an act of flagrant misconduct.

.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Our kid is down by 14 getting just thrashed.  Picks down.  Goes directly to his back, ref gives swipes.  He bridges straight from his back and winds up on top.  No pause in momentum, straight from his own back to pinning.  Ref calls the fall. 

 

Other coaches are going crazy saying its a tech.  I dont care because we had the dual but I wanted the ref to tell me the exact rule if he is going to overturn his own call.  Ref didnt know how to call it and dck tucked and reversed it. 

 

Can you bridge off your own back and get the fall in the middle of a tech?  I know this happened in the world semifinals to Hassan Rangraz from Iran who was the previous world champion

The technical fall has effectively already been achieved with the nearfall the ref was holding at the time. As soon as the bottom man squirms out of nearfall criteria the match is over. The match should have been stopped right then and there and the winner declared by technical fall.

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repechange,

 

 

Hurricane's post addresses that situation specifically: (Read the wording in BOLD)

 

Here's the verbatim part of Rule 2.14 on page 111 of the current NCAA rulebook:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SITUATION 2: Wrestler A, who is winning by 14 points, has Wrestler B in a pinning situation and has earned but has not been awarded a four-point near fall.  Wrestler A is pinned while still trying to pin Wrestler B.

QUESTION:  Does Wrestler A win by technical fall or does Wrestler B win by a fall?

RULING: Wrestler A wins by a technical fall.  Wrestler A has earned a 15-point or greater differential and after which can lose only by committing an act of flagrant misconduct.

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Amazing this topic went to three pages.  My assumption would have been that most would have understood this rule.  But I also assumed that of the standing reversal and was amazed how many didn't realize a reversal could be awarded without returning an opponent to the mat.

 

High School (NFHS) basically has the exact interpretation as the NCAA regarding technical falls.  As OfficialObserver noted, when situations like this occur, the official has to reconstruct the scoring in terms of what happened first or as it occurred.  The near fall points would make it a tech fall.  The near fall points were earned and occurred prior to the fall so the tech fall stands.  The only exception is flagrant misconduct.  The NFHS Case Manual (the book that most non-refs never get or read) highlights this exact situation with a flagrant misconduct situation.  It is consistent with the NCAA interpretations.

 

NFHS 5.11.4 SITUATION D: In the first round of a tournament, Wrestler A has a 13-point lead and is in the offensive position. Wrestler A places Wrestler B in a guillotine and meets near-fall criteria for a period of two seconds. The near-fall points have been earned, but not awarded. Wrestler A’s shoulders come in contact with the mat for a period of two seconds. The referee indicates a fall and stops the match. Wrestler A punches Wrestler B after the fall occurs.

 

RULING: When this situation occurs, scoring must be reconstructed as it actually occurred. Wrestler A won the match by technical fall and the flagrant misconduct occurred after the match was over. In this case, neither wrestler advances to the next round of championship competition as Wrestler A won the match, but was disqualified due to the flagrant misconduct which occurred after the match was over. Three team points will also be deducted from Team A. (5-12-2b; 7-4-3)

 

If I had this situation, and knew the score in my head, I would just stop the match when the wrestler pinned himself and awarded the tech fall.  If I didn't know the score, I would have called the fall and then would have had to reconstruct the points in the order they occurred.  It looks ugly to fans because it appears a fall was wiped away.  This is especially true when a tech fall has been earned and the opponent somehow reverses his opponent to his back and a fall is called.  It ends up getting wiped off and it looks screwy because the kid that got the fall ends up losing.
 

Edited by Rakkasan91

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It's a bad rule. Either that or get rid of the self pin. I like the idea of defensive falls where wrestler B is not in control but takes a deliberate action that pins wrestler A, but I don't like the idea of wrestler A applying a guillotine and pinning himself through no action taken by wrestler B. Just my two cents worth.

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