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Frank_Rizzo

Ohio State kid got screwed against St. John

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That was 2 and 2, but no points were awarded. Screw job. Lots of home cookin' in the officiating.

 

Regardless, very high quality dual meet overall and lots of good bouts.

 

No dog in the fight, but I completely agree that it it was a 2 for the cradle & control but he wasn't held long enough for the 2 NF. Initially when he locked up the cradle I thought the same about the NF but backing it up & watching again it was only a 1 count.

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That was 2 and 2, but no points were awarded. Screw job. Lots of home cookin' in the officiating.

 

Regardless, very high quality dual meet overall and lots of good bouts.

 

No dog in the fight, but I completely agree that it it was a 2 for the cradle & control but he wasn't held long enough for the 2 NF. Initially when he locked up the cradle I thought the same about the NF but backing it up & watching again it was only a 1 count.

 

That's the same way Gibbons called it on BTN.

 

Referee: "I'm giving no change of control."

Gibbons: "No change of control (laughing). Here you can see it. This is a cradle all right, and the only question right now is whether this guy is going to stay off his back or not. That's how you get a reversal (laughing again)."

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I think the back ground music was an old Eagles tune. something about lyin eyes or maybe Jack Nicholson as the Col. You can't handle the truth. Home cooking at Carver. You betcha!! Love to watch Borat cavorting on the mat though.

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That was 2 and 2, but no points were awarded. Screw job. Lots of home cookin' in the officiating.

 

Regardless, very high quality dual meet overall and lots of good bouts.

I wouldn't argue either way I guess, but Demas was going to get beat no matter what happened in that situation. His entire intent the entire match was to stay as far away from St. John as he could. He wouldn't shoot because he was afraid to get countered, he wouldn't stay close because he was afraid to get taken down.

 

He ran until he couldn't run anymore, and he was going to do that until the clock ran out. He got what he deserved. (and it looked to me like he has the skills to do more, why not take a chance)

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That was 2 and 2, but no points were awarded. Screw job. Lots of home cookin' in the officiating.

 

Regardless, very high quality dual meet overall and lots of good bouts.

I wouldn't argue either way I guess, but Demas was going to get beat no matter what happened in that situation. His entire intent the entire match was to stay as far away from St. John as he could. He wouldn't shoot because he was afraid to get countered, he wouldn't stay close because he was afraid to get taken down.

 

He ran until he couldn't run anymore, and he was going to do that until the clock ran out. He got what he deserved. (and it looked to me like he has the skills to do more, why not take a chance)

 

 

Not really sure which match you were watching...

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The alleged screw job was in the second period correct? Didn't Demas have an entire 3rd period to try to win the match and he chose to be content with losing a decision? Instead of crying like little girls maybe one of you guys should have suggested to Demas he use the final two minutes of the match to try and win the match. Just so we're clear I wasn't pleased with DSJ's overall performance but instead of crying and making excuses I know he'll go back to work and try to get better.

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Agree with Hawkfever on this one. The majority of tOSU guys strategies were to back up back up back up back up and play the edge. Demas was the worst of them. I don't think people realize how hard it is to shoot on a guy moving straight back and not get yourself totally out of position. This is why refs need to call stalling immediately on this tacit. At least some of the guys would back up back up back up back up shoot. Demas just did the back up part of that equation. St John should play the game a little more and taken a bunch of half shots and fakes and he probably would have about 5 stall calls. I was not really a fan of implementing the push out rule in college but after last night I don't think it can happen fast enough. It would change a team like tOSUs strategy around totally and make them wrestle.

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The alleged screw job was in the second period correct? Didn't Demas have an entire 3rd period to try to win the match and he chose to be content with losing a decision? Instead of crying like little girls maybe one of you guys should have suggested to Demas he use the final two minutes of the match to try and win the match. Just so we're clear I wasn't pleased with DSJ's overall performance but instead of crying and making excuses I know he'll go back to work and try to get better.

 

If I recall the alleged screw job was in the third period...Demas picked down and needed to get away in about 35 seconds or so to keep DSJ from getting riding time. He got the cradle fairly early in the 3rd period (the only question was did he hold him long enough for back points or not) and not being awarded the reversal and the subsequent scramble/stalemate locked up the riding time for DSJ. I'm not saying that Demas would have won the match but the correct call would have put Demas up by 2 late in the third period.

 

On another note, tOSU looked absolutely awful from 165 to 197...not sure what the deal was.

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Sorry, but, I don't see where there is an argument on this one. That was clearly a reversal and two back points. They went to video review and kept the call the same, which makes me wonder why video review is even available. I still question whether Demas would have held on for the victory, but, unfortunately, we didn't get to watch and find out.

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That's the rub with video. If a call like that is not reversed, what is the point of the review? It seems like a perfect use for it: a quick situation where it may have been possible to miss the cradle in real time but it was obvious on video. Maybe he's just not that good and shouldn't be given an NCAA assignment after blowing this call as well as the Oliver-Stieber no-call in last year's finals.

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That's the rub with video. If a call like that is not reversed, what is the point of the review? It seems like a perfect use for it: a quick situation where it may have been possible to miss the cradle in real time but it was obvious on video. Maybe he's just not that good and shouldn't be given an NCAA assignment after blowing this call as well as the Oliver-Stieber no-call in last year's finals.

 

 

If I was evaluating the officials, getting it wrong after the video would bother me a lot more than missing the call in live action. In live action, calls ARE going to be missed in all sports, because things happen so fast. Getting it wrong AFTER watching the video makes me question whether the official even knows the rules of the sport he is officiating.

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The alleged screw job was in the second period correct?

No, Dr. Gonzo. We were discussing a non-call in the third period.

Didn't Demas have an entire 3rd period to try to win the match and he chose to be content with losing a decision?

No, Demas hit the cradle about 30 seconds into the third period. The ref missed it and then called a stalemate. So, on the restart, St. John was still on top and was able to ride Demas and secure the time advantage. Subsequently, Demas escaped using a stand-up and was trailing 3-2 (effectively 4-2) with about 45 seconds remaining. Demas pressed the action and Gibbons commented that he was trying to work off an elbow tie and hit a duck-under. However, St. John went into defensive mode by not engaging and circling away. He did a good job of staying in the middle of the mat, however, so he wasn't in danger of a stalling call, IMO. Without about 15 seconds left, Demas locked up with St. John and was moving him backwards, but St. John was able to pull Demas' head down and hit a nice single leg. While he never scored off of it, he was able to stay in on the leg, preventing any further offense by Demas.

Instead of crying like little girls maybe one of you guys should have suggested to Demas he use the final two minutes of the match to try and win the match.

Hmm...interesting comment. I haven't perceived anyone as "crying like little girls," just discussing the officiating. Most agree that it was a badly missed call. BTN replayed it from several different angles with Gibbons insisting that Demas hit the cradle, even explaining it in detail to the TV audience.

 

At any rate, I'd venture your comment about little girls is motivated by Iowa partisanship, not

rational discussion. Officiating is often the topic of threads on this forum, particularly when there's a controversial call or an obviously missed call. This one was merely an example of the latter.

Just so we're clear I wasn't pleased with DSJ's overall performance but instead of crying and making excuses I know he'll go back to work and try to get better.

I'll agree with you here concerning your opinion that DSJ will go back to work and try to get better. I was somewhat surprised that Demas did as well as he did against a healthy DSJ. I believe it's the only close match he's had this year and I know he's beaten several guys ranked higher than Demas. Perhaps the Buckeye is a bad style match-up for DSJ or maybe he just had weight issues after the holidays. We may find out if they meet again at National Duals or the Big 10's.

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Hurricane-Thank you. I remembered DSJ putting his sweatshirt on while the review was going on and for some reason thought the second period ended. I looked for the match for a while last night and couldn't find it. I found the 30 second clip on FLO where it is obvious that DSJ has a hold of the leg the entire time. This is a question of how the rule reads I believe. DSJ had a hold of the leg the entire time. They went back and reviewed it and came up with the call stands.

Hurricane-As to the Iowa homerism-Without looking it up I don't know how the rule reads. I know that DSJ had a hold of the leg the whole time and I know the ref reviewed it and said the call stands. I know how it looked live and I know how it looks on the 30 second clip on FLO. I don't think it was the right call because I cheer for Iowa, I really don't know. Live I didn't think there was any nearfall, perhaps a reversal. I wouldn't have thrown a fit if there had been a two call. I just don't know how the rule reads, I assume the ref does. He reviewed it, had a chance to change it if he needed to get it right, and let the call stand. Perhaps DSJ having a hold of the leg negates the reversal from the locked cradle, I don't know, I hope th ref does.

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Hurricane-Thank you. I remembered DSJ putting his sweatshirt on while the review was going on and for some reason thought the second period ended. I looked for the match for a while last night and couldn't find it. I found the 30 second clip on FLO where it is obvious that DSJ has a hold of the leg the entire time. This is a question of how the rule reads I believe. DSJ had a hold of the leg the entire time. They went back and reviewed it and came up with the call stands.

 

 

DSJ having Demas leg means absolutely nothing when a cradle is locked up by Demas. I've watched Ed Ruth and many others get takedowns/reversal, back points and pins all while their opponent was holding their leg. Heck, Matt Snyder had a couple of them with that exact circumstance at the Southern Scuffle a few days ago.

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mvattivo-I believe you, I don't know exactly how the rule reads in the rulebook. I would just hope the ref would and he reviewed and the call stood. Either he knows what he's doing or he's really stupid. It's hard to get calls wrong on video review. It happens from time to time but it's not easy to do.

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If I was evaluating the officials, getting it wrong after the video would bother me a lot more than missing the call in live action. In live action, calls ARE going to be missed in all sports, because things happen so fast. Getting it wrong AFTER watching the video makes me question whether the official even knows the rules of the sport he is officiating.

And, let's face it, some authority figures (e.g., teachers, police, referees, etc.) dislike it when someone questions their judgement. On BTN, you can hear part of Ryan and the ref's discussion. The ref shakes his head and says; "No. No, Tom. No." After Tom's assistant comes over he again says; "No. No, I'm giving no change of control." Then he puts his hand on Ryan's chest for an instant and says; "If you want to go to video review..." BTN then switches to the replay before cutting back to Ryan who's approaching the refs at the scorer's table. He says something to the assistant ref, who nods and then the head ref (who is leaning over the scorer's table) says; "Hey Tom, go away" and points him back to his corner.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying all authority figures respond inappropriately to criticism. Nor am saying this guy necessarily did, although it appeared he was at least irritated with Ryan (if not downright mad). At any rate, it was a missed call and the question is why it wasn't caught on video review. You could see the refs hunched over a small screen, but I think the official video is only a one-camera view taken by a non-BTN person (not sure though, so correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps what they had to work with didn't give a clear view of what actually happened. If so, then they definitely should get with BTN to have access to their multiple-angle replays. From what BTN aired, I believe most officials would change that call to at least a reversal for Demas, unless they weren't willing to admit they made a mistake initially.

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mvattivo-I believe you, I don't know exactly how the rule reads in the rulebook. I would just hope the ref would and he reviewed and the call stood. Either he knows what he's doing or he's really stupid. It's hard to get calls wrong on video review. It happens from time to time but it's not easy to do.

Well, my question is what video did they review? I think they only use a one-camera view taken by a non-BTN person, but I'm not sure. Hopefully, someone can clarify. If that's true, then maybe they had a horrible video with a very bad angle to make a valid determination. As I indicated before, I can't imagine officials not overturning that call if they were reviewing what BTN aired, unless they had some ulterior motive (e.g., just being obstinate, protecting their ego, pissed at a coach for questioning them, etc.).

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Couple comments-first any video matside review is only done with the official video review camera; secondly the official calling the match is the highest rated official in the NCAA tournament, so he knows the rules. Personally, with St. John still on the leg, the ordinary call here would be 2 and no backs because of the lack of certainty a reversal had indeed been made. With all the 'funk/spaghetti' wrestling going on now, officials are waiting longer to declare control; remember after the flurry it showed no change of control. JMO

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St. John did not "have the leg". When Demas first hit the cradle, St. John grabbed the leg and locked hands around it. However, when being turned to his back, he lost his grip and his hands came apart. his left hand was trapped behind Demas' leg, and his right hand was out away from his body.

 

It was a blown call. It happens. Luckily it didn't happen at nationals. Demas will get over it, and is starting to wrestle like we Ohio State fans had hoped he would this year.

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Couple comments-first any video matside review is only done with the official video review camera; secondly the official calling the match is the highest rated official in the NCAA tournament, so he knows the rules. Personally, with St. John still on the leg, the ordinary call here would be 2 and no backs because of the lack of certainty a reversal had indeed been made. With all the 'funk/spaghetti' wrestling going on now, officials are waiting longer to declare control; remember after the flurry it showed no change of control. JMO

 

 

not sure how mccormick rates so well bc every time i see him he is awful.

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